Episode 05: Patrick Brown, MPP, Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario

Steven Murphy:

From the corner of Bay and Dundas in downtown Toronto, this is Like Nobody's Business, a podcast of thought leadership and business innovation. I'm Dr. Steven Murphy, dean of the Ted Rogers School of Management at Toronto Metropolitan University. Patrick Brown is the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party of Ontario and member of the Ontario Provincial Parliament for Simcoe North. Brown joined TRSM's Distinguished Counsel-in-Residence, Ralph Lean, to talk directly to TRSM students about law and business as part of the lecture series, Law, Business and Politics — The Real World.

Speaker 2:

My question to you is how will your policies directly affect students? And why should a university or college student vote for you over the other parties?

Patrick Brown:

The short answer is jobs. Right now, Ontario has the largest difference between general unemployment and youth unemployment. We're tied with Nova Scotia for that number. We have to do a better job at creating jobs. And you look at the education system today, we're not graduating young people for the jobs that exists. We're graduating young people for jobs that existed 20 years ago. And a lot of people say, "That sounds like a slogan. What the heck does that mean?"

Let me put it into real terms, because you'll have friends that are in this position. Last year, we graduated 9,000 teachers for 5,000 teaching positions. We graduate, every year, double the amount of new teachers than we need. Conversely, I'm in Kitchener-Waterloo. Media, some tech companies there. At one company, Desire2Learn, the education software company, they hired 300 new employees last year. These are booming, and they got half their employees from the U.S.

I said, "How can you get them from the U.S? We got smart students in KW." And they said, "Well, the deep programming we need is not available in our academic institutions." I want to make sure if there are jobs, that the school system, the academic journey matches them. And if a university needs to change the program they want to, I don't want there to be delays with the province for that approval.

I look at the skilled trades. There's huge shortages in the skilled trades in Ontario right now. Huge shortages, and yet we've got rid of shop class for most high schools. When I went to high school, I had shop class. I was horrible in shop class and decided to become a lawyer, unfortunately, instead. But there was people who went to shop class, and they were fantastic, and they went into the skilled trades.

I'm in Sudbury at Cambrian College. There was 10 time the job offers in their power line program than there was graduates. Radiation safety at Pembroke, same thing. Way more jobs than there is graduates. There are lots of fields where there's jobs. The Conference Board and the Chamber said that we lose through over $3 billion a year, the government does, for jobs available advertised in Ontario that we can't fill. So, the question is what am I going to do to help students? I'm going to make sure I fix the education system, so we graduate young people for jobs that actually exist.

Speaker 4:

As someone hoping to be the province's next Premier, what do you actually stand for and why should we, the people of Ontario, give you our vote?

Patrick Brown:

I think it's important for a leader of a party to lead and to set a direction. And it doesn't necessarily always has to be how the party's done it before. When I was an MP in Ottawa for nine years, the leader of the party there was Stephen Harper. At the time, the party opposed gay marriage. My perspective now that I'm the leader of the party is that you need to move on with the times. And frankly, my personal opinion is I don't care who you love. None of my business, none of the government's business.

And people thought it was controversial two years ago when I marched in the pride parade. First PC leader to take an official delegation. How can he do that? And I had some supporters who were upset with me. But frankly, my party was on the wrong side of that issue. And it's never, never too late to do the right thing. It's good to evolve. It's good to accept positive change. And like I said, initially, I'm not interested in revisiting divisive social issues.

I want to focus on what matters right now in Ontario. That's creating jobs. Because if you don't have jobs, you don't ... If you don't have people paying income tax and you don't have the money to support great post-secondary education and hospitals and the environment and you have to create jobs to have revenue ... And the reason we're seeing cuts right now in Ontario is because we're not creating jobs.

Speaker 5:

Ontario has the largest national debt of any jurisdiction in the developed world. This carries a huge interest burden that is pushing the province further away from balancing the budget. As leader of the PC Party of Ontario and potential premier of Ontario, explain what steps you would take to reduce Ontario's provincial debt, which is expected to reach $318 billion this year and is already having serious fiscal impact on the annual budget.

Patrick Brown:

But I really want to change the culture at Queens Park. Right now, they spend in a manner that ... I just think they don't value a taxpayer dollar.

Speaker 6:

Have you looked at ... You talk about the Auditor General's reports. This government's been there since 2003. Once a year, you get an Auditor General's report. And no matter who's in power, when you're in power, you're going to get an auditor's general report. But in the private sector, I sit on a bunch of boards. We get an auditor's report. When they're not doing it, we say to management, "Fix it up. Come back with a report to us. If you don't fix it up, you're fired." Doesn't happen in government. Have you read the Auditor General's reports?

Patrick Brown:

What's supposed to happen is that if the Auditor General says the government's incompetent, that the voters fire them. And so I'm hoping, based on the Auditor General's report, that voters will render that decision. But I think one of the Auditor General's frustrations is that all these recommendations have been ignored. The energy crisis was raised four or five years ago, and all the recommendations were ignored. And so, yeah, I think if you have an Auditor General's report and there are serious recommendations, they should be honoured. They should be acted upon.

Speaker 6:

So, you will commit, as leader, to read the Auditor General's report. And I'm assuming the electorate is going to put you in there. We're going to come back every year. Read these reports and hold people accountable, [crosstalk]

Patrick Brown:

I will be accountable to the Auditor General, and I'll be accountable Ralph Lean [inaudible 00:06:43].

Speaker 6:

Good. Go ahead.

Patrick Brown:

For the Auditor General's reports.

Speaker 6:

For the Auditor General report. Good.

Speaker 7:

What alternative actions or legislation do you believe the province must implement in order to strike a balance between their environmental responsibility and making energy affordable for Ontarians?

Patrick Brown:

We don't need this energy. We've given away $6 billion in surplus generation. It's not about green energy. Our own water power, Niagara Falls, we don't run at full capacity. We have hydroelectric projects in northern Ontario. We've mothballed. We spill water power every day. We've signed bad 20-year deals, and we give it away. People say Donald Trump wants to make America great right now. And I say, "I'm not sure it's Donald Trump making America great. It's Kathleen Wynne. She's giving free electricity to Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and New York. And she's not looking at those contracts, because they're her friends."

I'll look at those contracts. If there are legal outs, if there's exit clauses like there was in the Samsung deal, I'll take them because I can't afford to have Ontario struggling in energy poverty.

Speaker 8:

Thank you for coming in today. My question is students in Ontario are paying the highest average undergraduate tuition fees in Canada. In fact, they have tripled since 1993. A CBC article was written last year titled Ontario Budget 2016, new grants will cover average tuition for low income students, that discussed the liberal government's plans on increasing financial aid. You commented on this by stating that while the government boasts they are helping people, it is really just cancelling one program to pay for another. Can you please explain what alternative measures the Conservative Party would take instead to address this issue?

Patrick Brown:

One thing I'm not a fan of is political PR stunts. And so they said, "Everyone's going to get free tuition." How many people here are free tuition? Okay. None, so the reality is it's a shell game. They're cancelling some programs, replacing it with others. It's the same amount of money in the system. If he actually wanted to help people, make sure that the tuition help that's available is targeted towards academic journeys that will lead to a job.

Maybe the government doesn't need to subsidize 9,000 teaching spots if we only need 5,000. Why don't we subsidize 5,000 teaching spots if we know there's 5,000 jobs that will be needed each year and use the savings towards people studying courses that will lead to a career? We know we need more engineers. We know we need more technology. We need more skilled trades. You know, frankly, I want to use the carrots the government has to help young people afford courses and programming that will lead to a job. That's what it comes down to.

I'm going to make it easier for those that are going to follow a path that will lead to a job.

Speaker 9:

With the condition of the roads declining and the number of people relying on them increasing, the issue is becoming very pressing. So, my question to you is what would your plan be to help solve the issue surrounding transportation infrastructure in Toronto?

Patrick Brown:

Toronto is a world-class city and it needs world-class transit. You go to other cities around the world. You know, in London, you see a phenomenal transit system. I don't think the solution is putting road tolls on roads that people have already paid for. And that's why I challenged Kathleen Wynne on her road tolls and saying that this shouldn't be her solution to John Tory's ... the financial challenges in the city of Toronto. If you do it for Toronto, you have to do it everywhere else. And so, it opens up the door to having road tolls everywhere, that the folks in Mississauga are saying, "You put road tolls in Toronto, then everyone's going to the airport should pay a road toll in Mississauga, too."

Up in the 905, they're saying, "Everyone who's going to their cottages, they should pay a road toll, too." It created a war of municipalities wanting road tolls, and that's not helpful. Let's look at the case, the city of Toronto. The road tolls would've got them as high as $170 million a year. The infrastructure budget is $160 billion over 12 years. So, we're talking about a much bigger source of revenue that Toronto, as the largest city, was going to get a pretty significant share of.

According to the Auditor General, we're seeing no performance management, no comparisons, no competency on the spending of that $160 million. In some cases, we saw over-payments of 35%. What would 35% on $160 billion be? And what would Toronto's share be? If we actually spend our infrastructure dollars wisely, Toronto is going to get a heck of a lot more than $170 million a year for transit and infrastructure. And I'm eager to partner with John Tory and make sure we finance the infrastructure the city of Toronto needs.

Speaker 10:

Do you believe that those who suffer economic losses in hardship under the wind government could be made whole by your government? Which specific damages are you planning to reverse?

Patrick Brown:

What we can reverse is you look at the Green Energy Act and some of these bad contracts. Right now, the government's not sharing with us the contracts. But we managed to get one of the contracts, the Samsung deal. On the Samsung deal, there was exit clauses for a billion and a half, which was a good part of the contract. If there are similar exit clauses, I can unwind some of this. LRP I, which is what's to be built in the next five years, the government standing by. But the notice to proceed hasn't gone out. And so if the notice to proceed hasn't gone out, I can stop those as well. It depends when the election is. Right now, it's scheduled 16 months from now. If it's called earlier, we can mitigate more damage. We will try to undo as much of this damage as we can, but you're absolutely fair to say that not all of it can be undone.

Speaker 11:

If your party will be elected in 2018, how would you change the billing structure for electricity in the future? As well, do you think it is possible for Ontarians to receive retroactive payments for previous years?

Patrick Brown:

So, what's done in the past, I think it'd be impossible to go back on. You can't receive retroactive payments, but I do believe we can look at these contracts. As I said before, right now, Kathleen Wynne doesn't want to touch them. She says you can't touch them. Well, we know that's wrong, because the Samsung deal actually had an exit clause for a billion and a half. If she opens up and shares with the public the other contracts, I think where there's a will, there's a way. And there could be routes to minimize the damage of this excess generation. Ultimately, it's who's willing to do it.

Speaker 12:

I think you've made a good start. You branded the fundamental values of your party by being the first conservative leader to take part in the Toronto Pride Parade, showing your commitment to inclusivity. You further show opposition to Mr. Hudak's proposition to cut 100,000 public sector jobs and mentioning the public sector should be seen as a partner and not an adversary. What strategies will you use in continuing to rebrand your party's image and detract from the strategies that the previous candidates utilized in only targeting winnable writings? How you achieve a true traditional right-wing platform while engaging to the progressive voters of Ontario?

Patrick Brown:

Well, I like to say I'm a pragmatic, progressive conservative. A good idea can come from any corner. As to how you're going to have a traditional right-wing platform, it doesn't have to be a traditional, right-wing platform. You know, one of the things that annoyed me, frustrated me about Queens Park was before I won the leadership of our party, the PCs had voted against the liberals, something like 3000 times in a row. And the liberals had voted against the PCs about 3000 times in a row, and the same with NDP.

My party actually announced they're voting against the liberal budget one year before they even saw the budget. I'm like, "How can you be against something without even seeing it?" They announced they're going to vote against it without even seeing it. And so my philosophy is this — there's no monopoly on a good idea. And a good idea can come from the NDP. It can come from the liberals. It can come from the Rhinoceros Party. A good idea can come from any corner.

And if it makes sense for Ontario, we'll support it. We'll include it in our platform. Doesn't have to be left or right. It's what's going to advance the economic prosperity and quality of life in the province of Ontario, and I think we're seeing this approach ooze into the PC Party. Our membership is reaching record heights. When I ran for the leadership of the party, we had 10,000 members. And now, we're approaching 100,000.

One thing that I say again and again is it doesn't matter where you're born, what your faith is, what the color of your skin is, whether you belong to a union or not, or who you love. You have a home in our party. The beautiful thing about our membership today is it's younger than it's ever been. It's more diverse than it's ever been, and I'm going to continue to do whatever I can to encourage that.

Speaker 13:

As the leader of the Ontario PC Party and a potential future premier, is there an opportunity in terms of international relations that you would say Canada should be utilizing but it's not?

Patrick Brown:

Ryerson in Mumbai has their DMZ job incubator for innovation in the Mumbai Stock Exchange. It's incredible. I toured the DMZ earlier here today. Love what Ryerson is doing on that. It talked about job creation. That is a model example of how to do it. In terms of India, I do think we should be looking at new export markets. We can't be simply reliant on the U.S. and we should be looking at ways to facilitate marketing Canadian product to all of the emerging markets in the world.

India's growth is ... You look at India, China, Brazil. This is some of the most impressive growth markets, and we have a natural relationship with India. We have 1.2 million Indo-Canadians. The relationship, the family-to-family connections, give us leverage. A Canadian flag, if you're in a Chandigarh or Amritsar or Gandhinagar, means something, and I think we should leverage that and build on that friendship.

Speaker 14:

The majority of students in this course right now are around the age you were when you were elected into the Barrie City Council, so I would just like to see your point of view and any advice on how to network. Not just fast, but efficiently as well.

Patrick Brown:

What I'd say to anyone in this class is age is not a barrier. We have a democracy that is very open. I like to think I'm an young veteran now. I'm 38, and I've been at this since I was 22, at three levels of government now. And one thing that I think is beautiful about Canada is that I think there isn't a barrier on age. There is always one or two people that might be ignorant towards someone who's younger, but that's the remote minority. If you want to get involved in public service, you want to get involved in politics, no matter what the party is, they will all welcome you with open arms.

We have a litany of examples of young city counselors, young MPs, young MPPs. Frankly, most of the staffers at Queens Park are all young people, because they have energy to keep up the pace. We have a system that welcomes involvement. And if anyone has caught the political bug listening to Ralph's lectures, my advice would be get involved. Frankly, there's too much apathy out there. And the more people that get involved, no matter what party you pick, is a very good thing.

Steven Murphy:

Like Nobody's Business is a presentation of Toronto Metropolitan University's Ted Rogers School of Management. For more information about TRSM, visit ryerson.ca/tedrogersschool. I'm Dr. Steven Murphy. Thank you for listening.