Season 3, Ep. 7: What’s driving migration?
Show notes
Below, you will find links to all of the research referenced by our guests, as well as other resources you may find useful.
More about the Projects
Complex Migration Flows and Multiple Drivers in Comparative Perspective (MEMO)
Join us!
International migration: From root causes to drivers. Joint conference between CERC Migration, MEMO Partnership Grant, and Bridging Divides. May 13–15, 2025. Toronto Metropolitan University, with virtual and in-person options. Kick off panel: May 13, 2025, 5–7 PM EDT
Donate or Get Involved
American Civil Liberties Union (external link) (ACLU)
The Institute for Women in Migration (IMUMI) (external link)
Media & Blogs
CBP One App suspended: What it means for immigrants and U.S. immigration policy (external link) , Scripps News. Youtube.
Dickson, A., Mainwaring, C. & Tyerman, T. (19 February 2025). Trump’s extremist border policies are part of a global authoritarian moment. (external link) Al Jazeera.
Masferrer, C. (2025). Migraciones hacia Norteamérica en los últimos 25 años (external link) . Este País.
Trevizo, P. (1 May 2024). How shifting U.S. policies led to one of the deadliest incidents involving immigrants in Mexico’s history (external link) . Texas Tribune.
Villarreal, A. (30 January 2025). Trump’s immigration crackdown also targets legal pathways to enter US (external link) . The Guardian.
Yousif, N. (27 January 2025). Six big immigration changes under Trump-and their impact so far (external link) . BBC News.
Policy
About Abu Dhabi Dialogue (external link)
Bush-Joseph, K. (February 2024). Outmatched: The U.S. asylum system faces record demands (external link) . MPI.
CBP GO Mobile Application (external link) , U.S. Customs and Border protection
Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (external link)
Temporary Protected Status (external link)
Books & Book Chapters
Akanle, O. (2022). Migration and modern slavery: Perspectives in Africa to Europe migration (external link) . In, T. Mayer, & T. Tran, T (Eds), Displacement, belonging, and migrant agency in the face of power (123-135). Routledge.
Bauder, H. (2022). From sovereignty to solidarity: Rethinking human migration (external link) . Routledge.
Bauder, H. (2016). Migration borders freedom. (external link) CRC Press.
Czaika, M., & Reinprecht, C. (2022). Migration drivers: Why do people migrate? (external link) In, P. Scholten (Ed), Introduction to migration studies: An interactive guide to the literatures on migration and diversity (49-82). IMISCOE REsearch Series. Springer.
Ghio, D. (2020). Differences among European states involving Syrian asylum seekers (external link) . In, E.D. Carlson & N.E. Williams (Eds), Comparative demography of the Syrian Diaspora: European and Middle Eastern destinations. European Studies of Population, vol 20. Springer.
Maneri, M. (2016). Media discourse on immigration: Control practices and the language we live. (external link) In S. Pallida (Ed), Racial criminalization of migrants in the 21st century (pp. 77-93). Routledge.
Scholarly Articles
Akanle, O., & Ola-Lawson, D. O. (2022). Diaspora networks and investments in Nigeria (external link) . Journal of Asian and African Studies, 57(7), 1310-1324.
Akanle, O. (2018). International migration narratives: Systemic global politics, irregular and return migrations (external link) . International Sociology, 33(2), 161-170.
Anderson, B. (2019). New directions in migration studies: towards methodological de-nationalism (external link) . Comparative Migration Studies, 7(1), 1-13.
Crawley, H. (2021). The politics of refugee protection in a (post) COVID-19 world (external link) . Social Sciences, 10(3), 81.
Ghio, D., Goujon, A., Natale, F. et al. (2023). Assessing populations exposed to climate change: A focus on Africa in a global context (external link) . Population and Environment, 45(8).
Gil-Everaert, I., Masferrer, C., & Chávez, O. R. (2023). Concurrent displacements: return, waiting for asylum, and internal displacement in northern Mexico (external link) . Journal on Migration and Human Security, 11(1), 125-148.
Hamilton, E. R., Masferrer, C., & Langer, P. (2023). US Citizen children de facto deported to Mexico (external link) . Population and Development Review, 49(1), 175-203.
Koh, S. Y. (2020). Noncitizens’ rights: Moving beyond migrants’ rights. (external link) Migration and Society, 3(1), 233–237.
Koh, S. Y. (2015). Postcolonial approaches to migration in Asia: Reflections and projections (external link) . Geography Compass, 9(8).
Masferrer, C., Hamilton, E. R., & Denier, N. (2019). Immigrants in their parental homeland: Half a million US-born minors settle throughout Mexico. (external link) Demography, 56, 1453-1461.
Masferrer, C., & Roberts, B. R. (2012). Going back home? Changing demography and geography of Mexican return migration (external link) . Population Research and Policy Review, 31, 465-496.
McLeman, R. (2019). International migration and climate adaptation in an era of hardening borders (external link) . Nature Climate Change, 9, 911–918.
Shivakoti, R. (2022). Temporary labour migration in South Asia: Nepal and its fragmented labour migration sector (external link) . Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, 1-19.
Shivakoti, R. (2019). When disaster hits home: diaspora engagement after disasters (external link) . Migration and Development, 8(3), 338–354.
Smith, C. D. (2022). Visa policies, migration controls, and mobility aspirations: Mixed migration as a response to global regimes of closure (external link) . Yale J. Int'l L. Online, 47, 22.
Smith, C. D., & Masferrer, C. (2023). Introduction: Towards a New Migration and Asylum Research Agenda for the Americas. (external link) Journal of Immigrant & Refugee Studies, 21(4), 537–546.
Smith, C.D. & Masferrer, C. (eds.) (2023). Towards a new migration and asylum research agenda for the Americas (external link) . Special Issue in Journal of Immigrant & Refugee Studies, 21(4), 537-636.
Taylor, C. (2021). Metaphors of migration over time. (external link) Discourse & Society, 32(4), 463-481.
Triandafyllidou, A., Ghio, D., Veronis, L. & McLeman, R, (2023). (PDF file) Complex migration flows and multiple drivers: What do we know? TMCIS Working Paper Series, No. 2023/05.
Triandafyllidou, A. (2020). De-centering the Study of Migration Governance: A Radical View (external link) . Geopolitics, 27(3), 811-825.
Withers, M., Henderson, S. & Shivakoti, R. (2021). International migration, remittances and COVID-19: Economic implications and policy options for South Asia (external link) . Journal of Asian Public Policy, 15(2), 284–299.
Transcript
Maggie Perzyna
Welcome to Borders & Belonging, a podcast that explores innovative migration research and connects the dots to real world impacts. This series is produced by CERC Migration in collaboration with Lead Podcasting. I'm Maggie Perzyna, a researcher with the Canada Excellence Research Chair in Migration and Integration program at Toronto Metropolitan University. Migration is constantly evolving, shaped by economics, politics, climate change and shifting demographics. Understanding what drives migration requires a big picture perspective, one that goes beyond borders and short term policy fixes, requiring us to look at complex forces with a broader comparative perspective. How do migration patterns differ across regions, and what can we learn from these variations? Today, we'll be joined by two researchers from the MEMO project, which examines complex migration flows and their drivers across various regions. Taking a global perspective, the project aims to map the connections between internal, intraregional, and intercontinental migration. But first, we're heading into Mexico City, where the impact of the US government's evolving immigration policies is being felt in real time. As migration to the US becomes more complex, organizations working with migrants are scrambling to keep up with shifting policies and the trickle of challenges they create. It's a constant balancing act between navigating bureaucratic obstacles and trying to offer the support that could truly make a difference. But IMUMI, or the Institute for Women in Migration, is one of the organizations that's rising to the challenge.
Gretchen Kuhner
If people you know are going through so much and still are so strong and have so much hope, then why shouldn't you be able to join in that and try to accompany people the best way that you can, and also because you know you're in this place of privilege where you can have information, and maybe over a long period of time, you know, you know the laws, you know the different authorities within, at least within the Mexican government, as it changes and you can, I mean an individual case, I feel like organizations really can help individuals.
Maggie Perzyna
Meet Gretchen Kuhner, the director of IMUMI, one of MEMO's community partnered organizations. She started IMUMI 15 years ago after realizing that as an American citizen living in Mexico, she was in a unique position to help.
Gretchen Kuhner
I've been living in Mexico City for about 27 years, and originally, I'd been working at another organization that worked with asylum seekers and refugees in Mexico. I really wanted to focus on women and their specific issues in migration, and kind of be able to come to the table with those issues directly, rather than you're sort of like waiting until the last part of a conversation with an authority. That was one thing, and then the other was that since I had worked in the US, and I'm from the US, I also wanted to have an organization that could cross the border at least, and with the information that we're able to get out.
Maggie Perzyna
Gretchen says that in her 27 years of working with IMUMI, she has assisted 1000s of women attain refugee status or proper documentation. In contrast to prevailing narratives, her experience has been overwhelmingly positive.
Gretchen Kuhner
I think that's pretty telling, you know. So, I just feel like the whole issue around empathy has somehow been stripped from, you know, through the kinds of reports that the media is putting out in the US and the criminalization of, you know, just human beings.
Maggie Perzyna
Traveling freely is something many people in the West take for granted, but for millions around the world, securing a visa is a daunting, often impossible challenge.
Gretchen Kuhner
I think people in the United States, they have no idea that to go anywhere, most people in the world have to try to get a visa to go to the US, for example, which is practically impossible for the majority of people. And you don't realize that when you live in the US and you have a US passport, which allows you to travel so many places without ever having to, you know, line up, go to a consulate, pay for a visa, have an interview, those kinds of things. So, just the way that power relations are just distorted throughout the whole entire world, I think, is one of them. There's basically very, very few ways to immigrate to the United States. A lot of them have been cut off, or people have waiting times that are up to 25 years, you know, for a family visa.
Maggie Perzyna
Starting on the first day of the 2025 Trump administration, the few pathways available to asylum seeker have been significantly restricted.
Gretchen Kuhner
It's been a lot because it's been really quick, right? So, we sort of knew ahead of time that President Trump would cancel this telephone application called CBP One, and there were about 270,000 people who had registered for that application, who are waiting here in Mexico. There were about 38,000 people who already had appointments, who were waiting for appointments in the next couple of weeks. So, for those people, I think was even more of a shock because I think they thought, well, I already have the appointment.
Maggie Perzyna
With the CBP One app gone, there's virtually no other option for women and families in Mexico to seek asylum in the US. That was really, really a shock for people. I mean, you have to understand from people's perspectives, you know, they're traveling with nothing, or literally nothing, and trying to do what they were told to do. Trying to follow the law, trying to download this strange application on their phones and then find a place, either on the border in Mexico City, in another city, or there were two states in the South where you could also apply, in Chiapas and Tabasco. Some of them were already in the U.S. because their appointments were at different times. And so, we had family separation. Now we have a couple of those women who went to the northern border anyway, because they thought, well, maybe, you know, I think people just like, your hope is eternal. Like, maybe it's not true. Maybe once I get to the border, maybe they'll see that I already had the appointment. That eternal hope isn't uncommon according to Gretchen.
Gretchen Kuhner
One of the interviews that I did was with this really young woman, who had just turned 18, and I asked her, you know, when did you decide? Like, how did you know that you were going to leave? And she said it was in 1985 the day my parents had to leave during the war, and I was a little girl, and I knew then that when I turned 18, I was going to go and try to meet them, you know? So, I think that shows how long people wait, and how painful family separation is over all of those years and then just never, kind of losing hope to reunite with your family members across borders, I think is really poignant.
Maggie Perzyna
The costs of migration are not just emotional. They can be deadly. In 2023 a fire in the detention center in Ciudad Juarez took the lives of 40 men, underscoring the dangers migrants face in the hands of a system failing to protect them.
Gretchen Kuhner
Our organization, with other organizations, have been working for almost two years now on those cases, and when you take on cases like that, people don't live in a bubble. There are family members who are back in country of origin, who are waiting for their family member to get to the U.S. and send money back and they, you know, were just given such horrible information.
Maggie Perzyna
Part of IMUMI's role is to help seek justice and resources for these migrant’s families.
Gretchen Kuhner
So, we worked almost for two years now, doing the family reunification, getting, you know, families first to Mexico to be with the ones who survived. And then just, you know, suing the government, participating in all different kinds of legal procedures, psychosocial support, and then plus 40 families who lost the person who the family had decided would go to the U.S., you know, which is a big family decision lots of times.
Maggie Perzyna
People in Mexico aren't the only ones losing the opportunity to immigrate to the US. President Trump is gutting access to migrant services, rolling back protections for those who have successfully sought asylum, and even attempting to remove birthright citizenship. He knows, or he's been told, that this one, this first one you know, that closes the border because they're qualifying asylum seekers, basically has people who are invading the country. This whole 'invasion' language, you know, is the first one that's already being challenged legally in the US. The law, in and of itself, hasn't been changed yet. It still says people have the right to apply for asylum protection, irregardless of the way that they've entered the country, period. But that's all been sort of pushed back with Executive Orders, not just by Trump, but also during the Biden administration. They tried to limit it as well. So, this has been years and years in the making. Gretchen's biggest concern is how the changes in US migration policy will affect the most vulnerable group of all, children. So, concerning that these new policies are going to once again, bring family members to make decisions about separating and maybe sending children across the border or through a country so that their children can be placed in some kind of custody, and then maybe, you know, hopefully, with a family member. But just how painful and how dangerous that is. We worked in Mexico for 10 years to change the law here in Mexico so that children and families with children can no longer be placed in immigration detention. I think that, you know eliminating detention for children and families is fundamental, just to society in general, no? Because how you treat immigrants is usually a reflection on any society about how you treat children. And one of the things that we try to say in our campaigns around the issue is that a child is a child is a child. You know, a child is a child before they're an immigrant before they're of a certain nationality. And so, as societies within a certain region, we really need to care for our children. Gretchen Kuhner is the executive director of IMUMI, the Institute for Women in Migration. Many thanks to her for sharing her insights on the challenges faced by women seeking asylum and the recent curtailing of legal pathways in light of shifting US immigration policies. Joining me today to take a big picture look at what's driving migration, are Dr Claudia Masferrer and Dr Richa Shivakoti. Claudia is a Professor-Researcher at the Center for Demographic, Urban and Environmental Studies of El Colegio di México. Her research focuses on internal and international migration, the integration of immigrants and demographic dynamics of inequality and how public policies mediate these processes. Richa is the Research Lead on Migration Governance at CERC Migration, Toronto Metropolitan University. Her research focus is on the governance of labour migration within Asia, particularly between the labour sending states of South Asia and Southeast Asia and the labour receiving states in the Middle East. Claudia and Richa are both part of a consortium of researchers collaborating on the MEMO project, short for 'Complex migration flows and multiple drivers in comparative perspective'. MEMO is a six year, $2.5 million project funded by the Canadian Social Science and Humanities Research Council, examining internal, inter-regional and intercontinental migration flows and drivers across three main regions: South/Southeast Asia, West Africa and the Americas. MEMO brings together a diverse, multi-institutional and multi-disciplinary team of 38 academics and 32 partner organizations. Thank you both for joining me today.
Richa Shivakoti
Thank you for having us Maggie.
Claudia Masferrer
Thank you, Maggie. It's a pleasure.
Maggie Perzyna
So, people often think of migration as a crisis, but it's a long term reality. How does the work that you're doing through MEMO shift the conversation from short term reactions to sustainable, rights-based policies? Claudia, let's start with you.
Claudia Masferrer
Well, when you think of a crisis, we think that something will change suddenly. Let's say, right? And I mean, my work focuses on the Americas. So, North America, Central America, South America, and the Caribbean. And when you look at the whole region, you need to think about what has happened in the last, I don't know, 25 years, but even if you go a little bit back, we can see how there has been different moments when migration increases. People think that there is this, I don't know this crisis, and I like to think that we cannot, we cannot refer to it as a crisis, although definitely we could question how it has been managed, how migrants have been integrated. And the hardest thing to do, I think, is that because it's such a historical phenomenon, based on economics, politics, geography, even social relations, families that have been created in different countries, then the question is exactly that, How do we move from reactions? And it has been very hard, I think. I mean, I don't know if I have an answer right now, because we're living in a moment where there are a lot of reactions that are happening, and I like to think of different scenarios in different time frames. We do know that if people are in a legal limbo, let's say in an unauthorized status or irregular status, then these people, these migrants, are not subject to - they cannot access basic human rights like education, health. Sometimes it's very hard to work. So, I would say that no matter what we think that these solutions for changing policies are, we do need to think of how not to create these legal impulses or these statuses that give lots of uncertainty, that do not allow migrants to integrate fully into society.
Richa Shivakoti
I would really agree with what Claudia just said, and how we are constantly really being bombarded with headlines equating migration as a crisis, and it's always one tragic event after another, So, it really gives us the sense of urgency and calls for quick reactions instead of a more long term thinking. So, I think to shift the conversation, I think if you look more at the bigger picture and remind ourselves that the overwhelming majority of the world's population actually still stay within their countries of birth and international migration is still relatively low, with only 3.6% of the global population being international migrants. I think that, in itself, kind of shifts our thinking a bit, and also to think of migration as a part of life today. It is, for most countries we have to think about immigration and emigration policies and practices and they have, you know, significant social, economic, and political implications. So, for example, international remittances are so important for migrant families as well as labour sending countries, and are estimated to be over $800 billion today. Likewise, immigration is very important for destination countries such as Canada to mitigate different labour market pressures and such. And when we think about these as two sides of the coin, I think that really helps us see a bigger picture overall, and can shift our conversations beyond the short term crises and fixes. Also in terms of temporary labor migration itself, I think it started off as something that was supposed to be temporary, but 30, 40, years later, it's become a permanent feature for many countries. So, I think it is really important for us to not keep thinking of it as something we can turn off and turn on when needed, and think of the long term implications and rights based policies accordingly.
Maggie Perzyna
So, Claudia mentioned economic shifts, climate change, political instability, which all drive migration. What overlooked factors do you think deserve more attention? Richa?
Richa Shivakoti
Sure. So, I think it's actually important to realize that it's no longer one event or one thing that drives people to migrate, but that it is increasingly a mix of factors. And this is something that really came up over and over again in our interviews with Nepali returning migrant workers post-pandemic. Most of the people we spoke to really shared that they felt compelled to migrate because of various macro level push factors in Nepal, including the lack of income or employment opportunities. A very stagnant kind of political situation that has been going on for years and so on. But they also spoke of their own micro level reasons. Their lack of education or poverty levels were really preventing them from finding opportunities at home. A lot of them also talked about debt cycles and how they had to work abroad to kind of be able to pay back money. But for others, it was also related to how people were wanting to migrate because they wanted to experience it. Or to earn money, or to be able to make longer term plans for their families and aspire to a different kind of future. So, I think these kinds of mixed factors are really important when we think about drivers of migration. And I think also an important factor is to understand that migrants can have these aspirations to go to certain places and all but their own socioeconomic status and intersectional identities really determine what they're actually able to do. So, for example, in Nepal, migrants really have to rely on intermediary recruitment agencies to be able to find these jobs abroad, and have to pay substantial sums of money. So, it really limits them on what they can actually aspire to or actually go to. So, I think these mix of factors related to the drivers of migration and factors affecting their decisions, are important things to consider.
Claudia Masferrer
I would add, I mean, in the case of the Americas, I think it's very important also to think of the different moves that people make. So, maybe someone left Haiti because of the earthquake, and so these family members moved to Brazil. They worked for a while, and what we have seen is actually kind of like the trajectories of people on the move, being more complex. Maybe they left Brazil because they had no jobs at the moment after being employed for a while. Economic hardship and kind of like over the region, we do see these different moves with different people. So, I would say that these drivers are interconnected. But over time, it's also getting more complex to define what made them leave different places. So, maybe they left Haiti because of a reason, but then they also left from Brazil, or they left from Chile, and they are, for example, today, in Mexico City. And I think this, this complexity of the drivers of the trajectories, but also of the countries of origin. So, in the case of Haitians, for example, we do see children that were born in Chile or Brazil applying for asylum here in Mexico from Haitian parents. And so, I think this mixedness within the family is something we have already studied before. In the case of Mexico, U.S. migration, when you see lots of Mexican immigrants in the U.S. living with us, born children, and then maybe coming to Mexico or moving to Mexico for different reasons, and this mixedness in terms of also place of birth are getting more complex. And I would add that in the case of the Americas, it's not only political instability, as you mentioned, it's criminal violence in some places. We do know that the war on drugs in Mexico, for example, that started in 2006 motivated lots of movement within Mexico of internally displaced people that are also trying to apply for asylum in the U.S., which I mean very, very with very, very low possibilities of acquiring international protection. The same to Canada. And I think this idea that, I mean, criminal violence and political instability are linked, are something that we need to think about in the region. Not only for international migration, but also for the forced internally displaced. And finally, I would say that, as I mentioned, these complex families are getting, I mean, mixed in terms of nationalities, and we do see a lot of family reunification. And this is something sometimes overlooked, not only in the policies. I mean, Canada does have a stream for family reunification, but other countries do not. And where we had in 2014 the so-called unaccompanied children migrant crisis, we were really seeing adolescents who were actually trying to reunify with their parents, who were in the United States, for example. And so these different legal channels for children and adolescents have really forgotten, in some countries, that people might want to reunite.
Maggie Perzyna
I like the way that you frame this complexity as mixedness. I think it really captures what's happening. Collaboration is key. How do we get the government, civil society and researchers to work together on migration governance? Richa?
Richa Shivakoti
Collaboration is definitely key, but I think it's important to realize that there is often a lot of distrust among the various stakeholders working on issues related to migration governance, and this difficulty engaging in conversations, especially NGOs and the private sector actors who might have completely different objectives. So, one example I thought about is related to the Philippines, which has tried to really foster collaboration, at least discussions that happen regularly between the different stakeholders. And the government, in itself, there are several regular meetings that they have among the different departments that work on issues related to migration. So, I think that helps within the government as well. And then they also hold regular kinds of informal meetings with the government taking the lead and inviting all stakeholders to discuss issues related to migration and migrant workers. So, just coming to the table regularly, even when they do not agree with each other, is, I think, really essential in having these difficult conversations. And over time, I think it has helped create some sort of understanding that puts migrant rights at the center. And there's also a common voice that comes out of these meetings overall, at the national but also international level. And I think that is something that we have seen in the Philippines, and maybe not the same level of conversations are happening in other kind of countries. Another really important thing is, I think the government really has a lot more power or policy making capacity as such. So, the government can really do much more to bring the perspectives of migrant workers and civil society organizations, even when it is at the national kind of level discussions, and especially in state led discussions at the regional or global levels. And they can also create spaces for the involvement of migrant workers and civil society organizations and other stakeholders in these forums that you know really help in this collaborative aspect. And lastly, I think at the destination country for governments that send a lot of migrant workers abroad, it's really difficult for the government to be able to provide all services to migrant workers who come with so many problems in their embassies and elsewhere. So, it has been an approach by some labor sending governments to really try to work with migrant organizations, with NGOs, with diaspora groups, to kind of be able to work collaboratively to provide support for migrant workers in different forms. Because the resources of governments is really quite limited, especially given the scale of problems they have to deal with at the destination country. So, I think that kind of collaboration at the destination country is also key.
Claudia Masferrer
I think it's really interesting in the case of the Americas, to actually think of collaboration and cooperation at the regional level. So, we often think of, I don't know bilateral relations, right? So, Mexico, US migration is very contentious, has lots of reactions and discussions at the government level, but also in terms of governance. But we cannot think of what is happening in Mexico without actually collaborating with different stakeholders in Central America or South America, the Caribbean. So, as I was saying, this idea that the Americas is one region where we actually need to discuss these issues is, I would say, expanding and extending. And we are trying to push forward this idea that it is not only an issue of Mexico-U.S., or an issue of Mexico and Guatemala, let's say, right? I think, as we see these complex drivers and these complex flows, these more diverse flows in the region, then we need to sit together. And it has been heard right, not only within governments, but also between, between different stakeholders and civil society, I would say. I mean among researchers. I think we have a lot of collaboration, and the MEMO project is one example. But we all have different types of collaboration with different scholars from all over the world, and I think we respect each other, but it's harder when we think of governments that have different interests and political parties and different ideas on how to actually manage migration and deal with all these issues. So, I would say we really need more collaboration, not only within a country, but also at the regional level. And I think an interesting feature as well of the MEMO project is that it's moving beyond different regions, right? Southeast Asia or West Africa. And so, really trying to think at a global level, what is driving migration and how we can think about it in a different way?
Maggie Perzyna
Richa, you've looked at regional migration agreements in Asia. How effective have these been in protecting migrant rights?
Richa Shivakoti
Okay, so the intra-regional migration in Asia has really increased significantly over time, and states are working through different levels to govern various issues related to different kinds of migration. And that is something that's in the bilateral or regional or even global levels. At the regional level, we've seen some processes like the regional consultative processes specific to temporary labour migration, for example, the Colombo process or the Abu Dhabi dialogs. And these are informal, non-binding kind of state owned processes where government representatives meet regularly and they share their experiences or lessons learned or best practices. And they're important to build a rapport among the government actors over time and discuss several kinds of issues. But I think the focus on these regional agreements or forums are still on the concept that portrays temporary labor migration as a win-win-win situation. So, you know, it's supposed to be mutually beneficial for the countries of origin, the countries of destination, and migrant workers themselves. And they focus on, you know, issues related to remittances or economic advantages and such. But I feel like they're still disregarding the harsh realities experienced by many migrant workers. And you know, these realities could include different working or living conditions, substantial debts migrants get into, contract violations, wage theft and the absence of various kind of rights. So, we're still kind of moving away from this focus that we should have on migrant workers and their rights, and talking about other issues in these regional processes, is what I feel.
Maggie Perzyna
Claudia, how does this compare to agreements in the Americas?
Claudia Masferrer
Very interesting, I think. So, we need to think, first of all, that in the Americas, as I said, is this region, where we have different, very different countries that maybe do not feel a regional identity, or we do not share a regional identity. We have Canada, the U.S. and Mexico considered as North America where the, I mean, the discussion of migration, has always been conflated by trade and our trade agreement in North America has been, I mean, where migration was out of the question. On the other hand, you have Central American countries where really migration and mobility are completely, I mean, possible within the region, especially because they share this identity as Central American countries. And then you have different places in South America that actually share these, these agreements of mobility. So, you have the Mercosur, for example, where mobility was also facilitated. What we do not have similar examples of, how within the Americas we can actually create these different agreements. And I think part of it is this complexity of the region in terms of socio-economic history, let's say, and but I guess I mean the the fact that the United States is just north of us, of course, puts us in a situation where we will not be able to have, I think, different, similar agreements, where migration mobility is considered compared to Mercosur, for example. So, I think I mean, we are discussing more how to actually have a Latin American identity, let's say, or even just to consider ourselves, but we are always in this very peculiar situation where Mexico is part of North America for trade. But sometimes people consider it's in Latin America, which is like a different region compared to North America. So, I think it's interesting, I would say how, in the long run, maybe we can change this idea of what is a region, right?
Maggie Perzyna
So interesting. Claudia, you've studied how immigration policies shape inequality. Can you give us some examples of how policies create different opportunities or barriers for migrants, particularly in North America?
Claudia Masferrer
Yeah, I would say in the United States, it is very clear how we have about 11 million people with an irregular status, half of them are Mexicans. But then we do have a series of liminal statuses, or temporary statuses, that actually create these different inequalities. So, for example, we have the DACA, which is basically the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which let's say, protects people who arrived as children to actually be deported from the United States. But of course, this program by definition, with all the different, let's say, very specific definitions on who could apply, excluded lots of people who also arrived as children. So, you had to be working, you had to arrive in a specific time frame. And so, just by definition, although DACA provided this safeguard to these people of forgetting the let's say, reducing the risk of deportation, then it immediately excluded others who also arrived as children, who are still living under an irregular status. At the same time, have TPS, or temporary protection status that is defined for specific countries like El Salvador Haiti, but excludes others. And so, we do know that, for example, those TPS holders actually had positive trajectories where they could find jobs and they could integrate much better into the United States. But you don't have that. You have at the same time, for example, these minors that are born in the United States from undocumented parents that have lots of difficulties because their parents might not be able to go to school, to attend meetings, that fear deportation at the same time, and I think specifically at this moment, what we're seeing with the increase of fear of deportation and an increase of fear of return is definitely greater inequalities in everyday life, right? So, just think what would happen if you are threatened not to see your children, if you are deported, or you are detained by the force when you go to work? And I think, within society, in the United States, within the US born children of immigrants, you will create in the long term these greater inequalities. We already know from research that the effect of having undocumented grandparents is still pervasive in the children. So, it goes through three generations, and I guess having lived through even more risk and just the fear will definitely have an impact.
Richa Shivakoti
So, I wanted to actually give an example on an emigration policy that has been adopted by several labour sending countries in Asia and also in Africa now that create significant barriers for women migrant workers. So, this policy that several countries have introduced relates to a migration policy ban on women, migrant domestic workers seeking work abroad. And the rationale given for this ban is to basically protect them from abuse. So, it's interesting that this kind of protection, these kinds of measures through prohibition, are not really extended for male migrant workers, even though male migrant workers also face all kinds of abuse while working abroad. This migration ban policy has been introduced in several labor sending countries, and it's something that you see on and off, that they come and then it's taken back again. So, some examples of countries that have introduced it in Asia include Bangladesh, Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Nepal, India, Indonesia, Philippines. But interestingly now we see that some countries in Africa, like Ghana, Ethiopia, Ghana and Kenya, have also introduced this kind of ban. And what is really interesting is that it is understood that this policy does not protect female migrant workers from abuse, but actually, you know, drives the process underground. So, women cannot go through legal ways because of this ban. So, in their search for employment overseas, they have to bypass the regular migration processes, and this leads to more rights violations and abuses and things like that. You know, it becomes like an easy policy announcement by the government, and it really does not help the woman, because it closes the regular avenues for women to migrate, and it does not really give them any alternatives for work at home. Actually, the blame kind of shifts to the woman if they decide to go despite this ban, but there's no real change in supporting, you know, women in other ways.
Maggie Perzyna
Some scholars argue that migration policies in the global south are shaped as much by external pressures like international organizations or major economies as by domestic priorities. Claudia, do you see this happening in the countries you've studied?
Claudia Masferrer
Yes, in the country I live in, I think it's very hard for Mexico to actually avoid or just try to decide how migration policy should be defined, given the pressure from the United States. And I think this is very clear. I mean, we see this in other countries that have actually to also control their borders due to these external pressures. I think it's also hard, for example, for a country like Mexico to actually change the narrative. So, some years ago, actually, there was an attempt to promote, let's say, having legal migration through the country for facilitating transit, but also for protecting migrants on the move through our country, just to give them some kind of transit permits. And this was very complicated. There was a lot of pressure. And I mean, I can see why some governments, not only the U.S. governments, but also Central American governments, thought that this would actually pull migrants, invite migrants to arrive, or to have a pull effect. And this is not something that people are comfortable with, especially when sometimes migration is associated to all these negative conditions in the countries of origin, right? So, sometimes it's like, okay, we need to reduce the root cause of migration. We need to improve the economy so less people migrate. And we know it's more complex, but sometimes having an increase of immigrants is perceived for others as this kind of like failures of different countries of origin. So, I think there is a lot of tension, as you mentioned, with different policies in the Global South. But I guess I mean, it's also interesting to think how some countries really do not want to be countries of emigration because of this perception of failure in different areas. So, I think, I mean, in the case of Mexico, it's very clear, right? But we see similar processes in other countries. In the Americas, of course,
Maggie Perzyna
There's been a bit of a shift away from regional migration agreements towards more bilateral deals between countries. Richa, what's driving that change and what do we lose when countries take a more piecemeal approach?
Richa Shivakoti
Yeah, definitely bilateral agreements have really become popular, especially in Asia. We can really see, a big increase in bilateral agreements, but also of Memorandums of Understanding between labour sending and labor receiving countries. And international organizations and states also promote bilateral agreements between countries because they feel like this, you know, supports well managed migration, and can also support this triple win development for all the parties involved. And with two states, state parties you know that are only involved in this kind of bilateral agreements, it's seen as an easier alternative to regional or global agreements, as the negotiations can be focused and something can come out of it. However, the power asymmetry between the countries of origin and destination really come into play during these negotiations, as the receiving countries are usually much stronger, both politically and economically. And they are really able to set the terms of their agreement. So, one example is the Nepalese government has been trying to have this stronger bilateral agreement with several destination countries in the Gulf that focuses really on the safeguarding of workers' rights and such. The government has been trying to sign a labour agreement with Saudi Arabia for over nine years now, and they really held several meetings on the sidelines of these regional dialogues such as the Abu Dhabi process. However, they've really been unsuccessful. And the Saudi team has really just not be even willing to go and sign these agreements. And I think the power imbalance here is really clear. That even though the Nepalese government is really trying to ask for and agree on stronger terms for their migrant workers, the Saudi government can go without it. And despite, you know, not having a bilateral agreement. Saudi Arabia is actually one of the main destination countries now for Nepali migrant workers. Especially given their new 2034, or World Cup ambitions. And there are over 450,000 Nepalese workers currently employed in the country. So, I think that really shows you that Saudi Arabia can say no to these agreements, and still remains a top destination country for Nepal, but also for all the other South Asian and Southeast Asian countries. If that's where the jobs are, then they kind of have this ability to pick and choose who they work with, or who they sign agreements with and such.
Maggie Perzyna
So, it sounds like the piecemeal approach. You lose kind of the power of numbers. If we want to create a migration system that works for people, what's the one big change we need to make right now? Claudia.
Claudia Masferrer
It depends for whom, I guess. I mean, for people on the move, or for governments or for people already in destination countries, I think overall, what we need to think is that, as we were saying before, migration in the region of the Americas is not something new. It's not only driven by economic factors. It's much more complex. So this migration system that, I mean, whatever framework we have to actually manage migration, it's to think that there will not be one solution that fits all, right? There are some discussions, for example, on how to increase temporary workers programs. And of course, this might work for single men, young single men, but it might not work for families that might want to reunify with others, or children and adolescents that are not necessarily moving to work, but to live with family members. So, I think just trying to think of this complexity in the drivers, how they interconnected, how maybe someone left because of criminal violence related to the cartels at some point, but has moved forward within the region then, I mean, I guess just tells us that, yes, of course, things might improve and migration might be reduced if there are better conditions in our countries, but people will still try to try to move. Right now, what we have is, I would say, a very complex asylum system in the region where, right now, in the United States, the possibilities of getting international protection are really closed. In Canada, it's a little bit complex as well. In Mexico, we've seen an increase. But something I always highlight is that even when we think about how, for example, within the region, we've seen this increase of people seeking for international protection. In the case of Venezuelans, for example, we need to remind that people are also moving for other reasons. So, we see a focus in the region, on discussions on asylum and refugees, we see separately discussions on temporary foreign workers. We see on a different hand, how to consider people that might not be able to return to their home countries, like Haitians or Venezuelans, for whom these ideas of temporary migration are kind of like completely off. We've seen also at the same time, as I said, people that have been moving through different countries, Venezuela, that left to Colombia 10 years ago, that then moved to Peru, where they actually had documented status, but then could not renew their status, and so they decided later to move back to Colombia, or to go through the Darien and arrive now to Mexico. So, the system is already in place. Let's say, I mean, people are moving already within these countries, and these countries include more countries than before. So before we're talking about the North America, Central American migration system, and I think today, the system is really a whole region of the Americas, but we do not have different legal frameworks that are somehow flexible in terms that consider this, this complex trajectory. And so if someone who is from Haiti arrives to Mexico today and tries to apply for international protection, and we think that the idea needs to be okay. Why did you leave your country? Then it's like, why did you leave your country? Why did you leave Brazil? Why did you leave Chile, Colombia, and how come you are here today in Mexico? And this is complex, and this definitely calls for, as I said, regional cooperation, regional collaboration, different actors, but at the same time, considering that people do not make one single move, right? People might go back, might be deported, might just decide where to live at different times. And this is definitely challenging.
Maggie Perzyna
Richa, any final thoughts?
Richa Shivakoti
Yeah, I think you know, I would say that the current migration systems are very state-centred still, and we really need to kind of move away from that and give more space to include the voices of migrant workers and of civil society organizations. And I think, in Asia and also elsewhere in Americas and Africa and everywhere else, there really is a very vibrant non-state led cooperation kind of efforts that goes on, you know, that include migrant and diaspora associations, non governmental organizations, trade unions and even private sector. So, I think we really have to think of how to bring these different kind of actors in play when we think about these migration systems. Especially for migrant workers. So, there's so much talk about migrant workers and this and that, but their voices are really not heard. You know, at the national, the regional or international kind of spaces, and that is something that we need to push for. Also, I think the governments sometimes are a little bit behind understanding certain issues. They're still talking about some things that maybe you know are important, but maybe you know things have shifted over time, and bringing these other perspectives from migrant workers and such really will help update the conversations that are happening. Migration is really quite complex right now. And you know, there are migrants who are always thinking about what next, you know, with their limited resources, and, you know, money and all of that, they're always kind of using their agency, with their limited resources to think about what next, you know, what could they do better? What could they do for their families and things like that. So, this complexity sometimes kind of gets lost in these larger discussions. And I think bringing migrant workers and civil society organizations and such really would help the conversations overall much better. I also wanted to give a plug to our CERC and Bridging Divides conference that will be showcasing our different research findings from the MEMO research project with presentations from Asia, Africa and Americas. And this will be held in Toronto, May 13 to 15 the registrations are open now, so please have a look at our website and do sign up.
Maggie Perzyna
Thanks to Rita Shivakoti and Claudia Masferrer for joining me today and thank you for listening. This is a CERC Migration podcast produced in collaboration with Lead Podcasting. If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe to Borders & Belonging on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on the MEMO project and migration drivers, please visit the show notes. Before we wrap up, do you have an idea for an episode? Something we haven't covered yet, but should? Season four is all about your requests. DM us on Linkedin or email bordersandbelonging@gmail.com. We'll feature the most compelling ideas in our next season. I'm Maggie Perzyna. Thanks for listening.
