Season 3, Ep. 1:
Show notes
Below, you will find links to all of the research referenced by our guests, as well as other resources you may find useful.
More about the Project
LERRN: The Local Engagement Refugee Research Network (external link)
Donate or Get Involved!
Coalición por Venezuela (external link)
Jump Start Refugee Talent (external link)
Molham Volunteering Team (external link)
Souriyat across Borders (SAB) (external link)
Media & Blogs
(17 March 2023). Not A Burden”: How This Refugee-Led Organization Is “Cleaning The Perception” Of Refugees Everywhere (external link) . WUSC.
Brooks, L. (7 January 2024). ‘We are the talk of the town’: the refugee-led Glasgow charity helping women caught up in asylum system (external link) . The Guardian.
Easton-Calabria, E. (4 December, 2023). The under-examined role of refugee-led organisations: (external link)
Assisting refugee children (external link) . UNICEF.
Mohamed, A. (no date). Supporting Refugee-Led Organizations Globally (external link) . Resourcing Refugee Leadership Initiative.
Refugee-led organizations are locked in a vicious cycle. How can we break it? (external link) Centre for Lebanese Studies. Youtube.
Sturridge, C., Girling-Morris, F., Spencer, A., Kara, A. & Chicet, C. (3 November 2023).
Urban Refugees | Empowering refugee-led organisations (external link) . International Civil Society Centre. Youtube.
Reports and Policy
Easton-Calabria, E. & Alaous, Y. (2 February, 2024). Belonging in Berlin: an exploration of Syrian refugee-led organisations and volunteerism during COVID-19 (external link) . Democracy and Belonging Forum. Othering & Belonging Institute, UC Berkeley.
El-Abed, O., & Shabaitah, N. (2020). (PDF file) Impact of COVID-19 on Syrian refugees in Jordan from the refugee perspective (external link) . World Refugee and Migration Council.
(PDF file) The challenges facing LGBTQI+ refugees in Kakuma Refugee Camp, Kenya (external link) (2021). Organization for Refuge, Asylum & Migration (ORAM) and Rainbow Railroad.
The LERRN Working Papers Series
Torfa, M. (2019). (PDF file) Refugee-led organizations (RLOs) in Europe: Policy contributions, opportunities and challenges. (external link) European Council on Refugees and Exiles, Working Paper 01.
Books & Book Chapters
El-Abed, O. (2021). The invisible citizens of Jordan (external link) . In, Maggiolini, P., Ouahes, I. (eds) Minorities and state-building in the Middle East. Minorities in West Asia and North Africa. Palgrave Macmillan.
El-Abed, O. (2009). Unprotected: Palestinians in Egypt since 1948. IDRC.
Milner, J. (2021). Canada and the UN Global Compact on Refugees: A case study of influence in the global refugee regime (external link) . In, Samy, Y., Duncan, H. (eds) International Affairs and Canadian Migration Policy. Canada and International Affairs. Palgrave Macmillan.
Milner, J. (2014). Protracted refugee situations. In, E. Fiddian-Qasmiyeh, G. Loescher, K. Long and N. Sigona (eds) The Oxford handbook of refugee and forced migration studies, 151-162.
Scholarly Articles
Alexander, H., Milner, J., & Philip, A. (2022). Mentoring new voices in forced migration publishing (external link) . Forced Migration Review, (70), 4-6.
Alio, M., Alrihawi, S., Milner, J., Noor, A., Wazefadost, N., & Zigashane, P. (2020). By refugees, for refugees: Refugee leadership during COVID-19, and beyond (external link) . International Journal of Refugee Law, 32(2), 370-373.
Diab, J. L., Jasiukaitis, S., & El-Zakka, Y. (2024). Refugee voices vs. humanitarian choices: how much can refugee-led organizations redefine power and agency in post-2019 Lebanon? (external link) Journal of International Humanitarian Action, 9(1), 8.
El-Abed, O., Najdi,W. & Hoshmand, M. (2023). Patterns of refugees' organization amid protracted displacement: An understanding from Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey (external link) . Journal on Migration and Human Security, 11(1), 109-124.
Harley, T., & Hobbs, H. (2020). The meaningful participation of refugees in decision-making processes: questions of law and policy (external link) . International Journal of Refugee Law, 32(2), 200-226.
Lenette, C., Bordbar, A., Hazara, A., Lang, E., & Yahya, S. (2020). “We were not merely participating; we were leading the discussions”: participation and self-representation of refugee young people in international advocacy (external link) . Journal of Immigrant & Refugee Studies, 18(4), 390-404.
Milner, J. (2021). (PDF file) Canada and the UN global compact on refugees: A case study of influence in the global refugee regime (external link) . International affairs and Canadian migration policy, 41-63.
Milner, J., Alio, M., & Gardi, R. (2022). Meaningful refugee participation: An emerging norm in the global refugee regime (external link) . Refugee Survey Quarterly, 41(4), 565-593.
Pincock, K., Betts, A., & Easton-Calabria, E. (2020). The Rhetoric and Reality of Localisation: Refugee-Led Organisations in Humanitarian Governance (external link) . The Journal of Development Studies, 57(5), 719–734.
Shivakoti, R., & Milner, J. (2022). Beyond the partnership debate: Localizing knowledge production in refugee and forced migration studies (external link) . Journal of Refugee Studies, 35(2), 805-826.
Transcript
Maggie Perzyna
Welcome to Borders & Belonging, a podcast that explores innovative migration research and connects the dots to real world impacts. This series is produced by CERC Migration in collaboration with Lead Podcasting. I'm Maggie Perzyna, a researcher with the Canada Excellence Research Chair in Migration and Integration program at Toronto Metropolitan University. This episode will explore the power of collective action and the transformative impact of bringing refugee voices to the forefront. How do we ensure that those most affected by migration policies aren't just consulted but central to the decision-making process? Today, we'll be joined by two respected researchers to help us delve into how we can center migrant voices in these discussions and put the principles behind "nothing about us without us" into practice. But first, let's hear from someone at the forefront of the shift. Mustafa Alio is not just a policy advocate. He's a living testament to the importance of lived experience in shaping global migrant decisions. Born in Syria, Mustafa arrived in Canada with dreams of building a business. However, his personal story of displacement and the challenges faced by fellow refugees shifted his path dramatically.
Mustafa Alio
I come from this background. I never intended to get into the non-for-profit, the NGO, the policy space on refugees. I think what I had to go through myself and my family. I think that's what got me into the space.
Maggie Perzyna
Mustafa Alio is the Co-Management Director of R-SEAT, an organization advocating for refugees seeking equal access at decision-making tables. But Mustafa is more than just an advocate. He's a symbol of change. As the first refugee ever to be asked to advise a Canadian delegation to the UN, his story is both inspiring and groundbreaking.
Mustafa Alio
Today, this kind of knowledge that most decision makers rely on in terms of building or making decisions of that of you know, of the global system, it is a knowledge that being produced by the West. It is a knowledge that being produced by those without lived experience.
Maggie Perzyna
Mustafa came to Canada with hopes of getting an MBA and starting a business, but things didn't go as planned. The average cost of an MBA in Canada sits between $30,000 and $40,000 dollars which was more expensive than Mustafa could afford. And when the Syrian Civil War began in 2011 although he had landed a job at a bank in Toronto, Mustafa's attention was drawn back home.
Mustafa Alio
When the uprising happened, I started, you know, writing a few stuffs online, because a lot of people are saying, "like, oh, see what happened to Syria", that because of those people like uprising and all of that, because at this point the regime were calling people infiltrators or extremists or kind of terrorists in there. I wrote something around, so here is a comparison between the 70's and 2010 which is a year before the revolution, and then you see the projections, like how Syria basically went from maybe top 10 in the world when it comes to, like, resources, education and all that. We had the first ever stock market, street cars, for example, just kind of a small thing, but I didn't know. In the 50s there was like a streetcar in Syria. Even women voting rights was like in Syria before.
Maggie Perzyna
Mustafa's blog got a lot more attention than he expected, mostly from people who disagreed with his message. He received several online threats, including warnings that he would never be allowed to return to Syria. Members of his family still in Syria began facing backlash at work, so in 2012 Mustafa applied for asylum in Canada.
Mustafa Alio
And what strikes me at this point is like everyone was thinking about especially supporting refugees, but in a way, is like the focus was on food, on medical, on restoration, on housing and all of that. But then you talk to people, and then after housing, always, like the first question is, "how can I get a job?"
Maggie Perzyna
When Syrian refugees started arriving in Canada in 2015 Mustafa volunteered his time to get them the care and services they needed, but he noticed a disconnect between what the refugees actually needed and what Canadian volunteers and policy makers believed they needed.
Mustafa Alio
Some of those people who would sponsor refugees or support refugees, where you start talking about refugees as their pet, like my refugee is this and this and this. And there's always this kind of a subconscious place, in a way, that refugees are, you know, helpless or poor or maybe uneducated, and no matter how, how you fight it, it's somehow, somewhere in every single mind it exists.
Maggie Perzyna
Let's take a step back to 2015 a year when global migration hit record numbers. At that time, about 65 million people around the world were forcibly displaced. In 2016 all 193 member states of the United Nations came together and agreed on a crucial point, protecting those forced to flee their homes and supporting the countries that shelter them is a shared responsibility. Out of this commitment, the Global Compact on Refugees was born. A framework designed to make that vision a reality.
Mustafa Alio
When the compact was signed and agreed on by majority of UN states, including Canada, then the idea is like, okay, and what does that mean? How can government basically involve refugees? Would the government be open to bring a refugee advisor on a delegation, not to represent refugees, for that refugee advisor to represent Canada. So that's kind of the point. So, in a way, I'm an official member on a Canadian delegation. I bring the refugee perspective. I bring the expertise of something that Canada was, you know, wanted to lead on, which is economic inclusion and labor mobility path.
Maggie Perzyna
Mustafa was just the person for the job. Not only did he bring his experience as a migrant in Canada to the Compact, he shared his expertise in helping refugees find careers and create employment connections in their new home. This is exactly what he had been working towards since arriving in Canada. It was the driving force behind the organization he founded in 2015, Jump Start Refugee Talent. The Global Compact on refugees was a big success and aligned perfectly with Mustafa's mission.
Mustafa Alio
And what also was cool and unique about this, is that Canada was open to that, because then the Minister of Immigration, which is leading on this, was Ahmad Hussein, who also came to Canada as a refugee himself. So somehow there was a little bit more political openness toward that. Then in 2020 Canada announced at this point that, moving forward, Canada would never be on any delegation without having refugee advisor. I think that was my ultimate celebration because it wasn't a celebration that I was the first. If I was the first and the last, then that would have been a very tokenistic approach. Like I could have just like, hey, I was, I was on a delegation, and that's it done. But in the fact that I wasn't the last, this is the ultimate celebration. This is kind of the win.
Maggie Perzyna
At the 2019 Global Refugee Forum. Canada was the only country with a refugee advisor. It was a first for Canada and for Mustafa, and it's safe to say the world took notice at the next global refugee forum in 2023 Mustafa says a total of 13 countries had added a refugee advisor to the litigation. It's a big improvement, but Mustafa says there's a long way to go.
Mustafa Alio
It's going to be a long journey. It's going to be very difficult one, because it's all about the knowledge production. And if that knowledge production is not being produced from where the majority of refugees are in, then this is an issue. There is knowledge being produced by the Global South. It's just that it's not being taken by decision makers. Academia is a powerful tool. Is not being utilized properly. It's not an equal space. It's not an easy space. I always try to acknowledge my own privilege when I work with refugees, in a way, I'm someone right now who has lived experience, but in the West. I have all those tools and all of that front of me. But unless all of us right, start basically to understand that us sharing the power and then the privilege that we have is the path to making change in the future and then sharing that power doesn't mean that we get less recognition. Sharing the power gets you, in the long run, more recognition.
Maggie Perzyna
Mustafa Alio was the Co-management Director of R-SEAT, and a powerful advocate for centering refugee voices in decision making. Many thanks to him for sharing his insights on the importance of representation in global migration policy. To help us explore the impact of centering refugee voices in migration research, are Professor Oroub El-Abed and Professor James Milner. Oroub is an associate professor in the Forced Migration program at Birzeit University and the Middle East Regional Research Coordinator for the LERRN project. James is an associate professor of political science and the director of the Migration and Diaspora Studies program at Carleton University. He is also the project director of LERRN, a seven-year partnership project between researchers and civil society actors, primarily in Canada, Jordan, Kenya, Lebanon and Tanzania. Thank you both for joining me today.
Oroub El-Abed
Thank you.
James Milner
It's a pleasure to be with you. Thank you.
Maggie Perzyna
Oroub, tell me a little bit about the LERRN project and why you think it's an important contribution to migration research.
Oroub El-Abed
Well, thank you very much for having me and for giving me the chance to talk about the refugees we had the chance to meet with in Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey. The importance of the project studying refugee led organizations in these three countries, number one, focuses on understanding how refugee communities can organize themselves, can work together in order to address their rights issues, where they are addressing very basic rights for them. The most important thing here is refugees in Jordan and Lebanon do not fall under the umbrella of the 1951 Refugee Convention, hence they are given their rights as part of a certain, I may call it, policies that are customized in order to serve them. Meanwhile, those refugees in Turkey do fall under a state that is signatory of the 1951 Refugee Convention, and hence has tailored particular policies to serve them with their basic rights. The important thing about this research very much helped us to understand how refugees under different policies are able to maneuver, are able to secure their rights. Are able to come together in order to help one another, but also secure some basic rights that are not given to them by the host countries. The most important thing about our research as well, through the coordinators in the three countries, we manage not only to limit ourselves to refugees within urban settings, but also we widened our understanding of the refugees in a wider scale, in wider geographic scale. So, in each country, we covered people in camps, people outside camps. Also to understand how does it happen? We did not limit ourselves to one group of refugees, but we managed to cover all the refugees, the main groups of refugees in the three countries. I'll give very much of an example in Jordan. often the talk is about Syrian refugees. For the LERRN project, we managed to work on Palestinian refugees who are not holders of the citizenship, Syrians, Iraqi, refugees, Sudanese and Somali. In Turkey, we were able to address Syrians, Afghanis, Iranis and even some groups of Palestinians, surprisingly enough. So, in Lebanon, we had the chance to work on two main groups, which were the Palestinians and the Syrians, and we had some cases where we covered some Sudanese cases within Lebanon. So. that was very much seeking to understand the way they maneuver, the way they seek to get their efforts together, and to be able to build up their efforts in the host country, but also in connecting with networks in the diaspora.
Maggie Perzyna
James, what inspired the partnership and what do you see as its key goals?
James Milner
Yeah, no. Thank you very much. The inspiration of the project is to recognize that the way that we respond to displacement situations around the world really isn't working. Billions of dollars every year are contributed to refugee responses and primarily in regions of the Global South, like the Middle East and in East Africa, but those responses tend to reflect the policy priorities of donor countries and host governments that want to contain refugees in the spaces where they live, as opposed to seeking lasting solutions and ensuring protection for refugees. So, the real inspiration of the goal of the LERRN partnership, which started in 2018, was to recognize that if we can really foreground our evidence in the perspective of those who were most affected by displacement, we can identify new knowledge, that we can find innovative responses, that we can build evidence that will contribute to more lasting, meaningful and right space change. So, the inspiration of the project was, was really to recognize that the current system doesn't work. That 75% of the world's displaced people are not in countries like Canada, the United States, Australia or European countries, that they're in fact, in these protracted refugee situations in regions in the Global South and themselves are affected by these challenges, but the individuals in contexts of displacement don't wait passively for responses to come. So, in 2018 the project began with support from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council here in Canada, with working groups in East Africa, Kenya, Tanzania, and also in Lebanon and in Jordan, to really ask, how can we do research in a new way, and how can we mobilize that research in a way that's going to contribute to change? And the pandemic was this real pivot moment in the work of what we were doing and what so many were doing. And it was in that early days of the of the pandemic when international actors and many large international NGOs had to shelter in place, that we saw how refugee communities themselves were mobilizing to provide for the needs of members of their community. And that's what led to this very specific research in comparing refugee led responses in four countries in East Africa, three countries in the Middle East, and to recognize how much we have to learn from those who are affected by displacement. And the bottom line is that refugees are not waiting passively for international actors to come and provide for them, that they are active partners with innovative solutions, with knowledge that needs to be part of the conversation on how we can make our global responses to displacement more effective.
Maggie Perzyna
Oroub, you recently published a paper recognizing the growing importance of refugee led organizations, or RLO's for short, in different local contexts. How do civil society actors put the idea of 'nothing about us without us' into practice for migrant communities?
Oroub El-Abed
To answer this, really to understand that the word civil society is quite wide, because remember, refugee led organizations are also part of the civil society we're talking about. So, let's divide it here. To start with, it is essential for the civil society, actors, government, host governments, UN bodies, to understand that there are certain rights that need to be given to the refugees. And once again, as I mentioned earlier, it's very important to understand how these rights are being given. Countries that are not signatory of the 1951 Refugee Convention, are not giving the rights the way other countries that are signatories. So firstly, we need to very much call for ensuring that basic rights are going to these refugees. Secondly, it's very important to actively involve refugees and migrants in decision making processes, in the design of any project. It's important to take into consideration these particular groups that are called refugees, that are often forgotten. It's essential and here we come to another important element that we encountered while in the field, how decision makers, civil society entities, built hand-in-hand capacity of those refugees in order for them to be able to properly organize themselves. This is very important and very essential. We do not expect refugees to organize themselves and to lead organizations, whether recognized or whether registered or not registered on their own. So, the role of supporting partnering with these RLO's in order to enable them to have better role and better participation in the wider civil society. It's important to advocate for the socio-economic inclusion. I'll give the example of Jordan, the word social inclusion in the Jordan response plan handling the Syrian refugees in Jordan emphasized social inclusion. Sadly, that was not clearly put. How? What kind of role these civil society bodies need to do in order to ensure the social inclusion? So, by putting really programs working together with refugees, this can be very much implemented. And finally, I believe it's important to ensure that the voices of refugee led organizations are meaningful enough, are put in a meaningful impact. Are making an input, a meaningful impact on policies and programs. Again, this is a way where we are permitting refugees, we are seeing refugees as agents. This is one of the issues that we encounter that we often encounter in the Middle East. That refugees are very much labeled as a burden, and the way we can see that we give the refugees space is by seeing them as an asset, an asset to the economy, and asset to the culture, and by this, we are giving them, we're calling for their rights and dignities, but also, we're permitting them to lead more effective and sustainable outcomes through policies and practices.
Maggie Perzyna
James, you've written about meaningful refugee participation as an emerging norm in the global refugee regime. How can we ensure that including migrant voices is not just a token gesture, but an integral part of migration policy making?
James Milner
Yeah, and I think that's such a central question, and it really builds on the examples that Oroub was giving from Jordan and the work with her and her team in Lebanon and Jordan. And I think it's to begin by recognizing that while quite a bit of lip service has been paid to participation, that it's often been quite tokenistic, and that many civil society actors have not actually practiced the idea of "nothing about us, without us", but that they have used the stories and the narratives of those who've been displaced as a way of advancing their own policy priorities, their own advocacy priorities. So, we've seen a proliferation over the years of not only images of refugees, but stories from refugees, and the notion of the heroism of refugees, the resilience of refugees used as a way to seek support for UN agencies and international NGOs. And so, I think the first way that we ensure that participation of refugees is not tokenistic is to take a conscious step back and to think about, how do we share power? Who has power, and how do we ensure that that power is shared? I'll give an example from two contexts, one, the Kakuma refugee camp in Kenya, and the second, from meetings of the Global Refugee Forum in Geneva. The Kakuma refugee camp in Kenya is so heavily researched that they actually have a research manual on how to navigate the logistics of conducting research in Kakuma. And often, we have found that research in spaces like Kakuma are quite extractive, that external researchers come in, either consultants working with the aid agencies or academic researchers will come in with their own questions. Their research agenda is set. They'll approach organizations like refugee led, organizations led by Pascal Zigashane in the Kakuma refugee camp, and they'll say, we need your help with our research, we need you to find 15 refugee men who have experienced police violence in the past year. And that's their role, is to bring together respondents for a question. But if Pascal or his colleagues, or if other refugee led organizations, they say, well why are you asking that question, the answer is, well, that that's the question that we're here to ask. So, in a context like Kakuma and in local contexts, it comes down to a sharing of power, a shifting of power, to ensure that those who've been affected by displacement are involved at the very beginning as partners. They're involved in setting the research agenda and determining what the research questions are that we have an openness to the different forms that knowledge can take, that there's a recognition of the need for the co-production of knowledge, but then the results of that research, the knowledge that's produced, is then co-owned. It's not the exclusive domain of researchers or civil society partners to take that research away and use it for their own ends, but to include the partners who've been involved in the production of knowledge, in thinking about how that knowledge can be translated, had it can be mobilized to bring about change. So, that's in a local context like Kakuma. These dynamics get magnified incredibly when we get into a global setting like international meetings in Geneva. And this is where the norm of meaningful refugee participation is most present in its emergence. What we have found is in these global meetings that there has been a shift. A shift from refugees being invited into global meetings to tell their story, to inspire the participants, and then asked to leave as the business of the meeting takes place, to now, where we see refugee advocates with lived experience of displacement, demanding to participate, not just because of their experience, but because of their expertise. So, there's a group called R-SEAT - Refugees Seeking Equal Access at the Table - that's working with governments around the world to include refugee advisors in their delegations to these meetings, offering training to these refugee advisors so that they are able to navigate the politics of these global meetings, and demanding that refugees are involved, not only in the meetings themselves, but in the setting of the agenda, in determining who the speakers are going to be at these events, in holding to account those who are involved in decision making. So, we see a movement not only in the level of participation. At the Global Refugee Forum in 2019, there were fewer than 80 refugee participants. At the last Global Refugee Forum in 2023 out of 4500 participants, there were more than 400 participants with lived experience of displacement. So, you know, the number is increasing, but the substantive role of refugees in this process is what's changing and this is where we see this norm emerging. That it's no longer seen as acceptable to have a decision-making process where those who have experienced displacement, are excluded. Imagine a UN meeting on the rights of women, on the rights of Indigenous people, on the rights of persons with disabilities, where individuals who are identify as women, who are from Indigenous communities or who have persons with disabilities, if they're not present, and if they're not participating in those meetings. Those meetings are not seen to be legitimate. So, it's this active role in not just participating in meetings, but in shaping the agenda. That's the shift that we're seeing, and that's the move from tokenistic participation to meaningful participation.
Maggie Perzyna
Oroub, what are the main challenges to effective collaboration and mobilization?
Oroub El-Abed
The challenges are too many. I'm going to start with the first one. What do we mean by RLO's, and this was one of the very first things we had to go through, and James connected us with the UNHCR in order for us to understand what do we really mean by 'refugee led organizations' and when these organizations as refugee led can seek funding from the international community or can seek support from the local civil society bodies. Now that was the very beginning of understanding the challenges that refugees encounter. The definition wasn't quite clear, and the word 'organization,' until today, continues to be an issue for many refugees in the region. Recently, I was contacted by a group of Sudanese. This is the third time they reached out to me, asking me, we do have a buddy who wants to send us money from the UK, how can we receive the money? Because they are not registered, and so the first issue is the funding. Receiving the funding as what? As an organization that's unable to be registered because in Jordan and Lebanon, refugees are not permitted to register their own civil society entities. And because of this inability to have their own NGOs, or let's call it an NGO, because they would fall under the registration of the Ministry of Social Development. They end up being unable to receive any kind of support. It was two years ago when the UNHCR announced that it will be allocating few millions in order to be distributed to RLO's all over the world, and one of the questions is, how do they define RLO's? Are they supposed to be registered with a local, a host country? Or are they supposed really to be registered abroad? So, this challenge was addressed by the refugees through two means, as we managed to trace them in the region. Number one, few of them, of the RLO's, ended up going and registering themselves as 'social enterprises', between parentheses, non-profit companies. And by doing that, they partnered with a Jordanian or a Lebanese entity, or a Turkish entity, through which they were able to receive the money and the funding. Number two, and that was the common case that we found in the three countries, is that they opted to register abroad. So, they connect with the diaspora in the West. And with their family members, relatives, friends, etc, they managed to create an NGO abroad. In Germany, for example, there is the Syrian Homsi Association, which is extremely active in Jordan, in Lebanon and in Turkey. And we were very lucky to visit them in the three bases, they have been able to act strongly, because they were able to register abroad. And through this abroad registration, they were able to channel the funding to their local entities in the region. This is one of the challenges. For example, the Sudanese, the example I mentioned earlier to you, they were completely unable to register elsewhere. So, they continue to today to encounter these issues of not being able to receive the money or to get any kind of support from any entity, whether is it local or international. Another challenge is the issue of representation, very much talking to the point that was raised by James, one of the issues we came across in the three countries - that host countries tended to support few entities with, I may call them, 'old refugees,' in order to create RLO's. Although those people who are leading these RLO's are very protracted, old refugees who have been living in the country for a long time. We came across, for example, this very much in Turkey, where we met with Afghani associations. And these Afghani associations were led by refugees who arrived in Turkey some 40-60, years ago, and they were asked by the government, by the host state, to come and lead these entities. In order for them to make use of the language and of the culture that these refugees have oriented themselves with the host country, so that they can support the newcomers. Now the question is how these refugees are representative enough of the newcomers? So, the issue of representation is definitely of one of the challenges? Are they really doing their job rightly? Are they really representative enough of the needs? Are they voicing out the needs of the newcomers, of refugees, or not? So, this is another challenge that definitely we need to think of or think as well and raise the issue of the legal status once again, as long as the countries we're talking about are not recognizing rights for their refugees, this very much creates an issue, because these refugees are unable to act and are once again, not only not receiving funding, but they're unable to do any kind of activities. They're unable to be mobile between cities because of this issue of rights and where they can stop and where they can go out, and what is their mobility rights. That gets us into the problem that we encountered in both Jordan and Lebanon, particularly as countries that are not signatory of the '51 Convention. These two countries fail to have domestic laws dealing with refugees, and this is very much of an issue. It's an issue because the refugees are treated in these countries based on very, I may call it urgent, policies that are very much tailored to address a very much of an emergency, but they are not able to handle or to deal with refugees as people who are resident with their protractedness in the place that can be very much of an asset and an added value to the society and to the economy. So, this very much raises very much of concerns with how to deal with the refugees and with their organization and with their mobilization.
Maggie Perzyna
James, can you tell me about projects where refugee voices were central in creating successful solutions or policies?
James Milner
Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's in identifying these examples of impact, where we realize the true potential of meaningful refugee participation and in sharing power in not only generating knowledge, but in mobilizing that knowledge for change. Two examples come to mind, one around changing policies, and one around finding solutions. In terms of changing policies, there's an extraordinary story to be told again in Kenya, in the Kakuma refugee camps, on how the refugee community mobilized to raise the issue of the protection needs of members of the LGBTQIA+ community in Kakuma. This was an issue that was not prominent for either the government of Kenya or for civil society partners and UN agencies in Kenya at the time. And it was with refugee community voices and leaders connecting with civil society, civil rights actors in Kenya that were able to document the very differentiated protection challenges that members of the LGBTQIA+ community faced, not only fearing persecution because of their experience in their country of origin, but facing discrimination, marginalization as a result of their gender identity or their sexual orientation, and how that was an issue that wasn't on the agenda of the more powerful actors in the refugee response ecosystem in Kenya, and how the refugee community was able to find partners who were able to help document that experience and propose solutions. We now see the protection mechanisms in place for members of the LGBTQIA+ refugee community in the Kakuma camp in Kenya and elsewhere are not perfect but are certainly better. And where it is a classic example of where we engage in a shared process of identifying questions or issues that need to be on the research and policy agenda, that issues are raised that we wouldn't have otherwise anticipated. So, this issue would never have been on the agenda had it not been for members of the of the refugee community actively raising it. So, that's an example of how policies can change. But I think what is really powerful is to look at how practical solutions are developed and implemented by refugee communities themselves. And again, that the pandemic was a moment where we could no longer ignore how refugees mobilize consistently to respond to the needs of their own community. Research in East Africa showed that 80% of refugees will turn first to members of their own community for support before going to international organizations or international NGOs. But I think for me, one of the most powerful examples of the potential of refugee led initiatives comes from the response to the earthquake in Turkey and northwest Syria in 2023, where one refugee led organization called the Molham team launched a crowdfunding campaign to leverage support from the Syrian diaspora around the world to mobilize an emergency response for refugees whose homes had been destroyed or children who had been left orphaned as a result of this extraordinary, powerful earthquake. The Moham team raised over 13 and a half million dollars through more than 220,000 donations. So, average donations in the area of $50 or $60 from thousands of individuals in the diaspora was not only able to mobilize a really impressive level of funding, but because of the networks within which the Molham team operates with, with the way that they were able to work with community partners that were in these affected areas, because they were so embedded within the community, the impact of that 13 and a half million dollars was amplified. And when we think about the level of international support, the funding that goes to refugee responses, we don't think of refugee led responses as being capable of raising funds in the millions of dollars. And so, I think it's a recognition that the meaningful inclusion of refugees in discussion of solutions is not just an ethically desirable thing to do. It's not just, you know, it is a normatively desirable change that those who are affected by the policies and programs are designed that should be part of the conversation of what those programs look like. But even if we look at this from a very crude measure of effectiveness, of efficiency, if we look at it purely from a substantive question of who are the partners that can help deliver successful solutions in a cost-effective way, refugee led responses need to be part of that conversation. And I think the example of responding to the earthquake in Turkey, the work of the Molham team, the work of the refugee rights community that mobilized around the protection needs of members of the LGTBQIA+ community in Kenya really illustrate that this is an evidence-based conversation that we need to be having about the substantive value, that the meaningful inclusion of refugees in research and policy and program design is not just ethically desirable, but is substantively useful. It's in this response that will be able to find those examples of innovation that can bring about change.
Oroub El-Abed
It's very true. I'd like to add to what James raised. The strength of Molham as a really, you have hit the nail James by giving the example of Molham. In my view, their strengths have come not only with working with refugees and displaced people on the ground, but also this idea of navigating through the dynamics of the international community. And that was quite important. I mentioned the example of the Homsi Association. Here we are talking about Molham team, Syrians Across Borders. These are very successful models that we managed to come across in the region. And they managed to succeed because there was this cross-border collaboration where Syrians came together, not only from the Middle East, but they also connected with Syrians abroad, and they managed to bypass the limitations and the policy limitations of the region by registering abroad and by acting from abroad. We give them really this kind of smart mobilization is to be given the credit, and it's clearly seen in the kind of impact they are doing in the region because of this mobilization, is that they did not stop [because] the state did not permit them to register. They went abroad, they registered, and they came back, and they made that effect and difference on the people in these three countries.
Maggie Perzyna
What new challenges and opportunities do you see for LERRN and similar initiatives in the Global South as the global refugee situation evolves? James?
James Milner
The opportunity that is before us right now is really threefold, to be able to change, to shift from theory to practice. I think the normative case of meaningful participation has been made. I think there is now a recognition that this is, you know, whether we're at global meetings in New York or Geneva, or community level meetings in camps in Kenya or in the Beqaa Valley in Lebanon, there's a recognition that the way that we have worked before, it doesn't work. It's that 'emperor's new clothes' moment that we've now seen it for what it is. And to quote Oprah Winfrey, "Know better. Do better". So, we now know and so the challenge now is to do so. The question is, how do we then go about doing this work differently? And so, I think that's a challenge and an opportunity. The opportunity is that there is an appetite for a new way of working. The challenge is, how do we go about doing that? And that leads to the second challenge, which is really a culture change within the global research community, in thinking about how we partner with individuals and organizations in contexts that are most affected by displacement. And I think it's a shift in thinking of what constitutes knowledge, how we go about research, how we take credit for research, how we document that, how career progress is measured. I mean, it's a massive shift that that needs to happen in Global North context, at a time where universities are facing constraints and where there's increasing demand for individual productivity, so that's a real challenge that we face in the wider research community, that I think the greatest challenge. And the greatest opportunity is to be able to more thoroughly and systematically document what's already happening. To do more of the work that Oroub and her team led in the Middle East. So, effectively, what the East Africa team was able to do, what researchers are now doing in South America, is really moving from anecdote to evidence. It is really building that evidence base that you know anecdotally, we hear these examples of the amazing work of Coalicion di Venezuela, a refugee led organization working in a dozen countries in South America and mobilizing the skills of refugees as doctors and teachers. You know, the examples that we've been talking about in this conversation from from East Africa and the Middle East. We need to, we need to move from talking about these as anecdotes and examples, and really develop that coherent, systematic, evidence base that cuts across context and really to be able to say, what can we learn from these examples? How can we put these examples of innovation and change into conversation with each other to really reimagine the entire global refugee regime, the global refugee response system. So, the challenge that we now have is, you know, first of all, for those of us - I've recognized deeply my own positionality as a tenured professor at a Global North university with tremendous privilege and opportunity, how can I continue to think about how my privilege can be leveraged, mobilized, recognized and shared in a way that contributes to a shift in power that needs to happen at an individual level and at an industry level, at a community level, at a level of the global research community to really think about how we change the way that we work, and to recognize, as David Turton said decades ago, those of us who have built academic careers on studying refugee responses, our work is only ethically defensible if the research that we do in some way contributes to positive change in the human condition that we study. And so, it's a moment of reckoning for the global research community, certainly for researchers in the Global North, for institutions in the Global North, to rethink how we go about doing this. And so, the challenge is less in the Global South. The challenge in the Global South, yes is of questions of power, of questions of security, of those who are conducting research. You know, we see this very much in the context of the war in Gaza, that those who conduct research that is seen to be contrary to particular political agendas are silenced. But the vast majority of contexts in the Global South that greater solidarity, greater sharing of power, greater sharing of resources with those who are already engaged in these areas of research, policy and practice, is what will contribute to a change at a system level, and will ultimately result, I believe in a refugee system that is more able to deliver on its decades old mandate of ensuring protection for refugees and finding a durable solution to their displacement.
Maggie Perzyna
So, I think you've both made an excellent case already. But for a final question, I want to ask you, why does this research matter? Oroub?
Oroub El-Abed
It matters because the situation is becoming, in my view, more and more difficult. The number of protracted refugee situation is increasing with millions of refugees. Look what's happening today in Gaza and see what's happening today in Sudan. So, we're having Syrians who are protracted in the Middle East region. We're having new flows of refugees and displaced that are very much stranded. We need really to start thinking in a strategic way. Do we accept that those people continue to be living in these harsh conditions with no rights, with states that have not taken the right measures in order to address the needs of these refugees? There is today an alarming matter happening. It's the depletion of funding that is given by the international community to refugees. It matters because today, a country like Jordan and a country like Lebanon added to Turkey, another signatory country of the 1951 Convention, have been all calling for sending back the refugees to their countries. And this is very much of a worrying matter, sending them where, and sending them to who, and sending them to be under what rule? We need to see what is happening on the ground, realize the limitations that refugees are having in these host countries, in order to start thinking maybe of new solutions. We have three durable solutions that fall under the 1951 Refugee Convention. The three solutions are not working, not repatriation, definitely the local integration, as the examples that I mentioned from the Middle East, are failing completely because of the of the failing policies of the Middle East to deal with refugees as a plus and as an asset. And of course, resettlement to a third country is completely out of discussion in a world that's drawn by a policy of containment where refugees are better off to remain in the regions they come from. So, is it maybe time, through our understanding of what's happening in the field, to start thinking of new solutions, and it is our role, in my view, to keep our cases from the field, from what we're seeing in the field out loud, for policymakers to hear us and for other researchers also to join efforts with us, because we cannot do it alone. We really need to do this kind of collaboration at our level as researchers, but also to support those refugees that are very much working on the ground, in the in the very in the height, in order for them to bring out their voices, for policy makers to be aware of.
Maggie Perzyna
James, same question to you.
James Milner
I'm going to practice what I preach and give Oroub the last word. I think she's said it wonderfully.
Maggie Perzyna
Thanks to Oroub El-Abed and James Milner for joining me today and thank you for listening. This is a CERC Migration podcast produced in collaboration with LEAD Podcasting. If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe to Borders & Belonging on Apple Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on inclusive policymaking, please visit the show notes. Do you want to share your thoughts or additional research about refugees? We'd love to hear from you. Follow the Borders & Belonging LinkedIn page and be part of the conversation. I'm Maggie Perzyna. Thanks for listening.