Season 2, Ep. 8 – Rising tides, sinking roots: Climate change, adaptation and mobility in Pacific Island nations

Media

Kiribati and climate change (external link)  | DW Documentary

Morton, A. (19 December 2023). ‘Not conducive to our survival’: Pacific islands on the climate frontline respond to Cop28 deal (external link) . The Guardian.

Roy, E. A. (16 May 2019). 'One day we'll disappear': Tuvalu's sinking islands (external link) . The Guardian.

Who Pays the Bill for Climate Change? A plan led by Barbados could remake the way the world of finance deals with the climate crisis (external link) . The Daily Podcast, New York Times.

Policy and Reports

The 2050 Strategy for the Blue Pacific Continent (external link) . Pacific Islands Forum.

Campbell. (2019). Climate change, migration and land in Oceania (external link)  [Policy Brief No.37]. Toda Peace Institute.

Framework for Resilient Development in the Pacific (external link) . Pacific Islands Forum.

Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change. (2022). Climate Change and Land: IPCC Special Report on Climate Change, Desertification, Land Degradation, Sustainable Land Management, Food Security, and Greenhouse Gas Fluxes in Terrestrial Ecosystems (external link) . Cambridge 

Tabe, T. (2020). Colonial Relocation and Implications for Future Climate Change Induced Migration and Displacement (external link) . Toda Peace Institute, (79), 1-20.

 (PDF file) Pacific National Adaptation Plan (NAP) Guidelines (external link) 

The Paris Agreement (external link) . United Nations.

UN Climate Change Conferences. United Nations.

Warsaw International Mechanism for Loss and Damage associated with Climate Change Impacts (WIM). United Nations.

Books

Barnett, J., & Waters, E. (2016). Rethinking the vulnerability of small island states: Climate change and development in the Pacific Islands (external link) . In J. Grugel & D. Hammett (Eds.), The Palgrave Handbook of International Development (pp. 731–748). Palgrave Macmillan UK. 

Campbell, J., & Barnett, J. (2010). Climate Change and Small Island States (external link)  (1st ed.). Routledge. 

Klöck, C., & Fink, M. (Eds.). (2019). Dealing with Climate Change on Small Islands: Towards Effective and Sustainable Adaptation (external link) . Göttingen University Press. 

Kumar, L., Jayasinghe, S., Gopalakrishnan, T., & Nunn, P. D. (2020). Climate change and the Pacific Islands. In L. Kumar (external link)  (Ed.), Climate Change and Impacts in the Pacific (pp. 1–31). Springer International Publishing. 

Luetz, J., & Havea, P. H. (2018). “We’re not refugees, we’ll stay here until we die!”—Climate change adaptation and migration experiences gathered from the Tulun and Nissan Atolls of Bougainville, Papua New Guinea (external link) . In W. Leal Filho (Ed.), Climate Change Impacts and Adaptation Strategies for Coastal Communities (pp. 3–29). Springer International Publishing. 

Luetz, J. M., & Nunn, P. D. (2020). Climate change adaptation in the Pacific Islands: A review of faith-engaged approaches and opportunities (external link) . In W. Leal Filho (Ed.), Managing Climate Change Adaptation in the Pacific Region (pp. 293–311). Springer International Publishing. 

Nunn, P. D., McLean, R., Dean, A., Fong, T., Iese, V., Katonivualiku, M., Klöck, C., Korovulavula, I., Kumar, R., & Tabe, T. (2020). Adaptation to climate change: Contemporary challenges and perspectives (external link) . In L. Kumar (Ed.), Climate Change and Impacts in the Pacific (pp. 499–524). Springer International Publishing. 

Wewerinke-Singh, M., & Hamman, E. (Eds.). (2020). Environmental Law and Governance in the Pacific: Climate Change, Biodiversity and Communities (external link) . Routledge, Taylor and Francis Group.

Scholarly Articles

Bell, S. L., Tabe, T., & Bell, S. (2020). Seeking a disability lens within climate change migration discourses, policies and practices (external link) . Disability & Society, 35(4), 682–687. 

Chandra, A., McNamara, K. E., Clissold, R., Tabe, T., & Westoby, R. (2023). Climate-induced non-economic loss and damage: Understanding policy responses, challenges, and future directions in Pacific small island developing states (external link) . Climate, 11(3), 74. 

Constable, A. L. (2017). Climate change and migration in the Pacific: Options for Tuvalu and the Marshall Islands (external link) . Regional Environmental Change, 17(4), 1029–1038. 

Iese, V., Wairiu, M., Hickey, G. M., Ugalde, D., Hinge Salili, D., Walenenea, J., Tabe, T., Keremama, M., Teva, C., Navunicagi, O., Fesaitu, J., Tigona, R., Krishna, D., Sachan, H., Unwin, N., Guell, C., Haynes, E., Veisa, F., Vaike, L., … Ward, A. C. (2021). Impacts of COVID-19 on agriculture and food systems in Pacific Island countries (PICs): Evidence from communities in Fiji and Solomon Islands (external link) . Agricultural Systems, 190, 103099. 

Klepp, S., & Fröhlich, C. (2020). Migration and conflict in a global warming era: A political understanding of climate change (external link) . Social Sciences, 9(5), 78. 

Klepp, S., & Herbeck, J. (2016). The politics of environmental migration and climate justice in the Pacific region (external link) . Journal of Human Rights and the Environment, 7(1), 54–73. 

Kupferberg, J. S. (2021). Migration and dignity – relocation and adaptation in the face of climate change displacement in the Pacific – a human rights perspective (external link) . The International Journal of Human Rights, 25(10), 1793–1818. 

Locke, J. T. (2009). Climate change‐induced migration in the Pacific Region: Sudden crisis and long‐term developments (external link)  1. The Geographical Journal, 175(3), 171–180. 

McNamara, K. E., Clissold, R., Westoby, R., Piggott-McKellar, A. E., Kumar, R., Clarke, T., Namoumou, F., Areki, F., Joseph, E., Warrick, O., & Nunn, P. D. (2020). An assessment of community-based adaptation initiatives in the Pacific Islands. Nature Climate Change, 10(7), 

Noy, I. (2017). To leave or not to leave? Climate change, exit, and voice on a Pacific Island (external link) . CESifo Economic Studies, 63(4), 403–420. 

Oakes, R. (2019). Culture, climate change and mobility decisions in Pacific Small Island Developing States (external link) . Population and Environment, 40(4), 480–503. 

Perumal, N. (2018). “The place where I live is where I belong”: Community perspectives on climate change and climate-related migration in the Pacific island nation of Vanuatu (external link) . Island Studies Journal, 13(1), 45–64. 

Remling, E. (2020). Migration as climate adaptation? Exploring discourses amongst development actors in the Pacific Island region (external link) . Regional Environmental Change, 20(1), 3. 

Sahai, S., Tabe, T., & Ryle, J. (2021). Cyclone Winston: Catholic women’s faith and agency in a coastal village in Fiji (external link) . In J. M. Luetz & P. D. Nunn (Eds.), Beyond Belief (pp. 117–137). Springer International Publishing. 

Tabe, T. (2019). Climate change migration and displacement: Learning from past relocations in the Pacific (external link) . Social Sciences, 8(7), 218. 

Thomas, A., & Benjamin, L. (2018). Policies and mechanisms to address climate-induced migration and displacement in Pacific and Caribbean small island developing states (external link) . International Journal of Climate Change Strategies and Management, 10(1), 86–104. 

Weber, E. (2015). Envisioning South-South relations in the fields of environmental change and migration in the Pacific Islands—Past, present and futures (external link) . Bandung: Journal of the Global South, 2(1), 1–21. 

Weir, T., Dovey, L., & Orcherton, D. (2017). Social and cultural issues raised by climate change in Pacific Island countries: An overview (external link) . Regional Environmental Change, 17(4), 1017–1028.

Donate or Get Involved

Kiribati Climate Action Network (external link) 

Maggie Perzyna  

Welcome to Borders & Belonging, a podcast that explores regional migration issues in a global context. This series is produced by CERC Migration in collaboration with Lead Podcasting. I'm Maggie Perzyna, a researcher with the Canada Excellence Research Chair in Migration and Integration program at Toronto Metropolitan University. The impacts of climate change on Pacific Island populations, many of whom reside in coastal areas, is a growing global concern. Land is a critical component of Pacific Island societies. And in most places, the people and their land are mutually constituted. These island nations have done nothing to contribute to climate change, yet they disproportionately deal with its effects. In a moment, I'll be joined by two esteemed researchers, who will help us understand the regional implications of climate change on the Pacific Islands. They'll discuss the shifting discourse in the international community and the need to support adaptation strategies in the region. But first, we'll hear from someone who lives and works in Kiribati. Spread out between Australia and Hawaii, Kiribati is a nation composed of 33 islands, most of which are coral atolls. With turquoise waters and white sand beaches, Kiribati may sound a lot like paradise but the reality on the ground is far from idyllic. As one of the lowest lying countries on earth Kiribati is extremely vulnerable to climate change. Most of its islands are only around two meters above sea level, making communities susceptible to intense flooding. Robert Karoro, a consultant who works with local communities to mitigate the effects of climate change recently spoke with residents on the island of Aranuka about how coastal erosion is affecting them.

Robert Karoro  

So, there's a school compound within that island that has been badly affected by coastal erosion. So, it's badly affected by coastal erosion that the quarters where the teachers are staying for the school because it's, uh, had to be relocated. And they went through the village and told the elders in the village, you know, their situation and everything. So, they had to move the teachers further away from the shoreline and, uh, put them where the playground is.  

Maggie Perzyna  

But it's not just buildings that are at risk of destruction from coastal erosion. Access to clean drinking water is also in immense danger as sea levels continue to rise. This is particularly concerning in Kiribati, which lacks lakes and rivers and relies predominantly on shallow wells for its drinking water.

Robert Karoro  

And so, the water is so precious. To access the freshwater, you just have to dig very low because, you know, you don't have to dig far beneath the earth because you quickly touch the groundwater. And so that groundwater we can say is very vulnerable with contamination. Very vulnerable to contamination, you have saltwater intrusion. So, every time when flooding or inundation happens, you can have sea water seeping into the groundwater and not making it you know, fresh.

Maggie Perzyna  

As part of his work with a local group called the Kiribati Climate Action Network, Robert has spoken with residents to hear about how this is affecting them. Unsurprisingly, they've shared how contaminated groundwater paired with increased droughts poses some serious health risks.

Robert Karoro  

Just last year we declared a state of emergency because of the drought. So, over the years it's been getting hard to have access to, you know, proper clean water. Even just drinking is being you know, prioritized. So, if you have to bathe yourself or shower, we're using brackish water. And some of the issues that communities will talk about will be, you know, how the water quality is affecting their skin. They're having skin diseases and all these things. It's not like the water you drink, you can also shower with it. That is not done in Kiribati. What you reserve for drinking is just what drinking. 

Maggie Perzyna  

Accessing clean drinking water is not the only issue that people of Kiribati are facing as a result of climate change. Community members have also told Robert, that food insecurity is also getting worse.

Robert Karoro  

They do see it's getting harder. So even when it comes to farming, or their crops that they usually eat, like Breadfruit and coconuts, these are being affected by all these factors that are climate change. Right, so drought is causing these trees to die. In terms of fishing, you know, they go further out to get fish because usually the shorelines be getting, you know, also polluted, and they've been overfishing. So, people are going without, you know, a lot of damage done with rising temperatures, ocean temperatures. So, people are, you know, this is hardship. And they said, ‘this is something we did not experience before’.

Maggie Perzyna  

All of these issues are prompting both internal and international migration. Within Kiribati, some people are moving from the Southern islands to  the central atoll of Tarawa, which is the capital. Others migrate further -- to New Zealand, Fiji, Samoa, and other nearby islands. Forced migration of any kind comes at a cost. But Robert is particularly concerned about how leaving Kiribati can impact people’s connections to their culture and community. 

Robert Karoro  

So, the way I see it people actually want to stay because the sense of community is very strong. And that's something, you know, um, something that identifies them, something they can identify with. But if they go, if you put them in the middle of the city where it is all by themselves, it's very hard. We, they like socializing. Our people just love socializing and, you know, being together, you know, being happy and feasting and all that. 

Maggie Perzyna  

Over the course of his consultancy work, Robert has heard this sentiment echoed by youth across the island nation. 

Robert Karoro  

And when we did our survey, there was a question like that for them. You know, well-being, how do you see, what do you see in the future in 20, 30 years’ time? We didn't want to just tell them, 'Do you want to migrate or not'? We just want to hear what they want in 20- or 30-years’ time. And all they're saying is, “oh, we want better houses for ourselves here, you know, stronger structures. We want water to be running properly for, uh, you know, the future generation'. So, when they're talking about 20, 30 years’ time, they're looking at being more resilient for places that have been undergoing coastal erosion.

Maggie Perzyna  

When asked if he thinks whether remaining in Kiribati would actually be feasible, Robert says yes. But doing so requires hard work and an investment in the islands. 

Robert Karoro  

I'll be frank, they were saying it with so much enthusiasm. They're looking forward for all of this. Realistically, after being here, being in Kiribati, I see that it can be realistic if we put our resources into it. Right, like infrastructure if we work if we have proper infrastructure for these places. It's doable.

Maggie Perzyna  

Many thanks to Robert Karoro for sharing his experiences of working in communities affected by climate change and Kiribati. To help us understand the climate change challenges facing Pacific Island nations and how the international community can support them are Dr Tammy Tabe and Dr John Campbell. Tammy is an Oceana research fellow at East West Center in Hawai'i. John is a retired Associate Professor and Research Associate at the University of Waikato in New Zealand. John is currently working on the human dimensions of climate change, adaptation, and disaster risk reduction, including environmental migration at the School of Geography, Tourism and Environmental Planning. Thanks for joining me.

Dr John Campbell  

You're welcome.

Dr Tammy Tabe  

You're welcome.

Maggie Perzyna  

The description of sinking islands is a catchy way to describe the worst effects of climate change on Pacific Island nations. But the truth is not all islands are affected the same way. How does climate change specifically impact Pacific Island populations and what are the challenges they face? Tammy let's start with you.

Dr Tammy Tabe  

Thank you, Maggie. It's true that climate change does affect Pacific Island nations in different ways, also at different levels based on their populations and the composition and the features of their islands. I'm going to highlight perhaps two key impacts. And John can elaborate more on other impacts. I think one of the key things and key impacts experienced in the Pacific Islands is the disruption in the surface on ocean temperatures which affects and changes El Niño and El Niña seasons. And a lot of this posts challenges in terms of extreme rainfall in many parts of the Pacific islands that often result in flash flooding. Flash flooding leads to displacement of people, sometimes it costs lives as well. Loss of property, agricultural lands, and also damage of infrastructure. And there's a lot of examples of this that have happened in the Pacific Islands. And I think one of the most devastating ones did take place in the Solomon Islands in 2014. It also leads to severe droughts in many of the islands affecting food and water resources. An example would be the Marshall Islands and Kiribati recently last year, and even this year, experiencing droughts across the islands, particularly in the main urban areas, which actually calls for external intervention. And a lot of households and a lot of the people ended up relying heavily on produced goods for subsistence, and so it does not really contribute to their nourishment. A lot of it often exacerbates some of the illnesses that people face. The other key impact is the increase in ocean temperature. So, increase in ocean temperature causes ocean acidification, which leads to degradation of coral ecosystems and affects fisheries. There's examples not only in the Pacific but across the globe of many fishes being washed ashore because of the reduced amount of oxygen in the ocean. The other is intensify tropical cyclones, which is quite prevalent in the Pacific Islands, which leads to a lot of displacement, particularly in many communities. Damage of infrastructure, but also it really increases dependency and the need for external intervention. Very simply, just a few weeks ago, there was tropical cyclone Lola, which is a Category Five cyclone that affected Vanuatu and parts of the Solomon Islands. Now the tropical cyclone came before the actual cyclone season. So, that was new to the Pacific Islands. And I think it calls for more preparation, more need to get predictions right to allow communities and even the government to be able to prepare for this kind of extreme events. 

Dr John Campbell  

Yeah, thanks Tammy, that's a really good outline of a number of the effects of climate change on Pacific Islands. I think one of the interesting areas is the narrative of the sinking Island, which was quite early in the piece, when people didn't really know so much about how islands and coastal systems would respond to sea level change. Research has been done so far on atolls which are very low-lying islands, just one or two meters above sea level. For the last 40 years, when we have had some sea level rise, some of the islands are actually growing in size as more material is washed up from the reefs onto the land surface. And so, we don't really know what's going to happen with atolls. Questions still remain, like so far, the rate of climate change has been quite minimal compared with what is projected. And the rate of change is probably likely to increase significantly over the coming decades. If we look at the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. And we don't really know how adults or respond to that physically. But the other issue is around the kind of things that Tammy spoke about, even if the islands remain only be livable, and this great debate about that as well. There is quite a move towards looking at habitability as a key element as to whether people can live on islands or not particularly atolls. But habitability is different is also really problematic. Because outside so-called experts don't really have a good understanding of local news. which is about environment and what people actually desire from their environment. So even that question is often bone of contention. The other thing I might add is the issue of disease vectors in the Pacific. I think that in some large islands, where the high elevations were free from malaria, malaria is working its way up slope as it gets warmer than the malaria mosquitoes. And there are other questions about other insect borne particularly mosquito borne diseases such as the fever. And if, as Tammy indicated, droughts become more common, it's likely that drinking water and good quality drinking water will be more difficult to obtain. And that may lead to issues such as infant diarrhea and things like that. So, there are a lot of things were really scratching the surface. 

Maggie Perzyna  

John, in your research, you've written about the intricate relationship between Pacific Island communities and their land, and how climate change threatens this relationship. Can you tell us a little bit about that? 

Dr John Campbell  

Yes. Throughout the Pacific, the relationship between people and their land is almost indivisible. That land and people are seen as one in the same thing, so they constitute each other. And more broadly, the word for land is based, and particularly in Polynesia is around the proto-Polynesian term 'vanua'. So, in Fiji it's 'vanua', in New Zealand for Maori, it's 'whenua' and Hawaii, it's 'Āina', so it's whole nuance, the same root. And that really means the people and the land, but all the other things that come with it. So, the animals, the landforms. And also, the spirits that are part and parcel of that land. So, there is a spiritual element of that relationship as well. Some people describe it, 'if I lose some of my land because of climate change, then it'd be like having my leg cut off'. And the other side of the story is, if people are forced to move, it means that they break that relationship with the land. And that is really quite critical for their personal security. So, people can migrate, as long as the connection with the land is maintained. So, in many communities, the need is for people to at least have somebody from your particular clan or extended family, on the land at all times, keeping their connection. So, if everybody left, then there would be no land to return to, or no 'vanua' to return to. So, that's the kind of deep-seated relationship that's often not taken into account. So, for example, when I talk about habitability, a key element of habitability is that relational aspect that people have with the land and the environment and the non-material world, that makes up part of their land. So, if that is broken, then there is a major issue for many Pacific Island people.

Maggie Perzyna  

Tammy, I understand you have some personal experience with this relationship John has spoken about, would you be able to share some of that with us?

Dr Tammy Tabe  

Yes. And thanks, John, for sharing about that. And so, as a Pacific Islander, when we talk about land, and how critical it is for Pacific Islanders, it is not often very easy to describe the intricate relationship between land and Pacific islands community and land and people themselves because every individual and every community in the Pacific have different forms of relationship with land. But land is very critical and foundational to the well-being, the identity of Pacific Islanders. In terms of my experience, and in relation to what John has shared previously, in terms of land as a basis of relationship. And so, when we talk about land, we're not talking about land as a different entity, but rather talking about land as sort of like a relational substance, an entity that is supposed to be passed on and carried forward through generations. And so, when you don't have land, when you have that disconnection, it's very difficult to be able to talk about land in a in a relational way because you're already disconnected. For the people of the Gilbertese, where I come from, when we talk about land, it's really difficult for us to talk about land in relation to we're connected to this particular land because we have been displaced many decades ago. Now our job is to look at land in a different perception. So, we've been displaced, we no longer have those ancestral lands. We're not living on them. We're not grounded on them. But how can we conceptualize the land in a different way that is embodied in us, and we continue to kind of like, live it through a different means. And so, that's perhaps because of somebody who has come from a displaced community, I'm able to have those kinds of conversations and reframing how land and our relationship to land is right now. Whereas for those communities, and people who still have those intricate relationships are still connected to their ancestral lands, they have a different kind of conversation about their relationship and what land means to them collectively, but also individually. And different communities and different people from different Pacific Island countries will have different ways in which they relate to their land and how the land means to them, how they embody it, and how they're able to carry it to other places that they migrate to. So, to just switch gears just a little bit. These islands are on the frontlines of climate change but their small footprint in the world hasn't really contributed to the issues they're facing. Tammy, what role does international cooperation play in addressing the regional implications of climate change in these nations?  I think there are different ways and different roles in which they can play. I think the crucial one right now is to support the Pacific Islands region in implementing the '2050 strategy for the Blue Pacific Continent', which was launched last year during the forum leaders meeting. Now they're currently having the forum leaders meeting right now at the Cook Islands. I think the other important framework that requires implementation, which has not quite been implemented since it was launched, is the 'Framework for Resilient Development', in the Pacific Islands. And I think that framework is also crucial in informing the 2050 Strategy for the Blue Pacific Continent. We have a lot of frameworks, we have a lot of policies that have been produced but have not been implemented exclusively across the region. Also, Pacific Island countries have been implementing the National Adaptation Plans, which also requires support in terms of financial support, but other kinds of resources as well. But I think one of the most important one that needs attention and needs support is addressing the global carbon emission. Particularly by ensuring that member countries take responsibility for their national determined contributions, so that we do not exceed the 2 degrees Celsius but continued to remain below that. And I think that's what the Paris Agreement underlined for member countries to be able to commit every five years a new target to emit either zero net emissions, but it's a responsibility that they've been given to ensure that the carbon emissions are being reduced. And I think this will have a lot of impact for Pacific Island countries, if the global carbon emission is maintained below two degrees.

Dr John Campbell  

I totally agree with what Tammy has said. And I think Pacific Island countries are doing a lot on their own account. But in the end, as Tammy pointed out, the international agreements such as those at the Conference of the Parties to the Framework Convention on Climate Change, progress has been painful, really, in terms of getting the big emitters to reduce their emissions. And I think that's critically important for Pacific Island countries. They produce even at a per capita level, much less in the way of greenhouse gas emissions than most other countries in the world. And they are really dependent on the other countries to actually reduce their emissions. And the Pacific Island countries have got stuck really, between on the one hand, facing the notion that people will have to leave them and be migrants. And on the other hand, saying, 'Well, this is our God given right. This is our land, why should we leave?' So, when they go to international conferences, they're kind of stuck in the middle in terms of the kinds of policy they take. But most Pacific Island countries, they desperately need adaptation. I don't like to use that word assistance. Because I think it should be seen, personally, as compensation. A lot of what's going into adaptation there comes under aid budgets, rather than any kind of notion of compensation budget. Because the countries, the big emitters won't agree to that. That notion, there is the notion of loss and damage, which is under the Warsaw Agreement, I can't remember its full name, in which the costs of climate change, trying to be looking for a framework to assess the costs of climate change, and then once they are established, maybe finding ways in which those costs can be offset. But again, progress is really sly. So, I think, you know, the international community has got a real responsibility here. And one of my fears is that that whole Pacific region has about 12 million people. And the great majority of those people live in Papua New Guinea, which is a very big country. And even though it's a large country, with very high Highlands it's still prone to climate change around the coastline, and also in the highlands. So, about 12 million people at the global neighbor, when we've got about 7or 8 billion, it's not that many. And I have a fear that the global community will say, 'well, you know, we can absorb 12 million people'. And not do their part to ensure that people can continue to live where they want on their homelands. Now, that's just my perception. But it does sort of weigh me at the back of my mind. So, the critical thing, then reduce greenhouse gas emissions, and pay for the costs of adaptation. So, people can stay at home if they want. Like a lot of Pacific Island people are great migrants. You know 8.5% of New Zealand's population if of Pacific ethnicity, for example. There is a big diaspora in the United States and another one in Australia. So, it's not about that Pacific people don't migrate. But up until now, most migrants have known that they could go home if they wished. That might change in the decades ahead. 

Dr Tammy Tabe  

Thanks John, for highlighting that because often, when we talk about adaptation in the context of migration, we often sort of feel, particularly as policymakers, we also feel that Pacific Islanders have the capacity and the means to migrate so we should offer different pathways of migration. But it's all part of that holistic relational system that they have. There's people that remain connected to the land at home, and then you have part of the family migrating. And they need to have all these relational systems and processes still activated through exchange of money and goods and services between families living on the land, in the home countries and those that are moved abroad. And so, while people have moved away, in most of the families, or most of the communities, those relationships continue to be intact and maintained because of those that continue to be grounded and remain in the land at home. And so, sometimes it's often tricky when we talk about, 'yeah let's get this Pacific Island community who's vulnerable to climate change to move because a lot of them have been migrating overseas. It's not that they can migrate, it's they can migrate while still maintaining those relationships at home. And those relationships are foundational to them being able to thrive and be able to continue to do what they're doing overseas or abroad. 

Maggie Perzyna  

Relocation is a worst-case scenario that both of you have explored in your work. John, can you tell me about relocation as a possible policy response?

Dr John Campbell  

When we talk about relocation is on the one then we have community relocation where whole community is moved because its site is no longer considered to be suitable. Or you have migration which is more like individuals and families migrating. Relocation is okay, as long as you can stay on your customary lands, so a lot of the schemes that they have in the Pacific. Two countries, Vanuatu and Fiji have policy guidelines - I think Solomons maybe as well that Tammy was talking about. Mostly relocation is envisaged is within customary lands. Because one of the things with climate change if you lose your land, that's bad enough. But if you have to go onto somebody else's land, that means their losing some of theirs. So, it's a kind of double whammy. The issue of community relocation, I think it's going to become more and more of an issue throughout the Pacific. Typically, it tends to happen after a community has been really badly affected by a tropical cyclone with associated storm surge, and people may have to reconsider, will we rebuild our village right next to the coast? Or will we move inland? Typically, or if they’re in the bigger islands with river floodplains? The same question, will we stay on river floodplain, good soil close to the water, or do we move upslope a bit? And these things are possible within your own land. But if you have to move on to somebody else's, then issues really do arise. The idea of international relocation, Tammy's family is a good example of that. Well, it's not a good example, if you know what I mean...

Dr Tammy Tabe  

[laughs]

Dr John Campbell  

But we've only got two or three. We've got the people from the Gilbert Islands, which is near Kiribati, going to Solomon Islands. So that is Tammy's family and their communities. We have people from the island of Vaitupu, which is in Tuvalu, some of whom have gone to live on an island in Fiji called Kioa, that has been reasonably successful. But there were original inhabitants,  of Kioa who would like the land back. And the third group is people from the island of Banaba and that was mined for phosphate. So, the island has become almost totally degraded. And the people from Banaba were relocated after World War Two to another island in Fiji, quite close to Kioa, actually, called Rabi. Again, there are issues relating to that relocation as well that remain unresolved. So, those are the three examples we have for international relocation. There's not many others that I can think of off the top of my head. So, most international mobility is typically family and individuals. And if a whole community was to migrate internationally, I think we can envisage that they would probably disband and some would go to one place, and some would go to another, and maybe that community it might exist virtually, and might exist in another sense in the Pacific, a very important concept is called 'vā' in Polynesian. It's kind of like a liminal space that connects people, even if not in the one location. So, it is possible you can have a community living in three or four different locations, but still feeling like they're still one in the same group. But they wouldn't have their land to connect to as the past. 

Maggie Perzyna  

Tammy, what do you think is missing in the policies and plans created to help Pacific Island nations?

Dr Tammy Tabe  

I feel like it's even challenging to even think about what's missing in the policies as well as plans that have been created for Pacific islands. Because policies are supposed to inform each other with different mechanisms that are in place in various countries, or most of the policies are interrelated and therefore must be aligned at all levels. So, when you have a policy in one of the Pacific Island countries at the national level, it has to be aligned to the regional framework, or you know, of regional policy or strategy. And then that strategy or framework has to somehow align to the international framework or policy or legislation. And then a lot of the implementation is easily done on the ground level. So, I think, for me, the missing part is being able to work collaboratively but mutually with communities that are actually experiencing a lot of the impacts of climate change, which many of us are using to inform policies. And I think that's easily the missing link, the National becomes the representative for all communities in the country. And so, it does not really speak to a lot of the issues that are experienced on the ground because they get reduced in terms of the words that have to be inputted in a lot of the policies. I think one of the other things that I think is missing, particularly in policies and plans are, how do we ensure that these policies are going to benefit communities or islands that are being affected, particularly in the case of climate change? It has a lot of, there's really a lot of variables in it, because it's not only about the policies, how do we implement them? Where do we get funding? But also, the question about the long-term sustainability of implementing these policies, at the community level or at the ground level is one of the big questions as well. And so, while we may have a lot of policies and frameworks in place to help communities and Pacific Island countries address and reduce, the impacts of climate change, there's always the issue of funding and sustainability of interventions that are brought into the region as well.

Dr John Campbell  

I totally agree with Tammy about those issues. One of the problems is that most assistance for adaptation is treated as aid. And the countries that provide aid, provide it on their own terms. So, they require for example, a lot of countries require, a) that things get completed in the short-term. So, long term, adaptation activities don't get funded. They tend to like things that can be seen. So, for example, building a seawall, building a water supply system, there are things that are kind of material, and can be seen, but building people's resilience is not such an easy task to measure. And yet, that's the kind of thing that needs a lot of support. And as Tammy said, local communities are not very often involved in this decision-making. And they shouldn't just be consulted, they should actually be central to it. And that just doesn't seem to happen. So, I think there needs to be a real improvement and the attitude of the people who fund climate change adaptation in the Pacific, they are not really doing a favour. They're doing, well I consider it to be an obligation. And sometimes I think it's seen as isn't that country, wonderful. It's helping us do this. But in fact, that country is a major greenhouse gas emitter and it's caused the problem in the first place.

Maggie Perzyna  

That's a really good point. Looking forward, what do you think the key priorities and challenges are in ensuring the long-term resilience and sustainability of Pacific Island nations? Tammy?

Dr Tammy Tabe  

Looking into the future, one of the key priorities. Now, many priorities always come with challenges as well, but one of the key priorities which I see in the region is the need to decentralize development to other outer islands, to outer provinces. A lot of the aid and assistance that brought into the Pacific Islands, is concentrated in urban areas where most of the development most of the government institutions are based. And so very little is done in provinces, particularly those that are not easily accessed. And I think when we look at the Pacific Islands in terms of sustainability and resilience, we also need to build perhaps development as well as resiliency in islands that are not that outer islands, also to allow populations to remain there and continue to live, as they do now. In most cases across the region when there is lack of access to economic activities, to education, a lot of the people migrate to urban areas, which create or exacerbate existing issues within the urban areas. And so, I feel personally that one of the key things or one of the key priorities is to sort of like ensure development is also carried out and is done in outer provinces and outer islands because that's where most of the resources are. That's also where most of the populations are. And I feel like that will have a greater impact on development in the entire country as a whole. One of the challenges if I'm talking about that the challenges that come with it is the fact that islands are quite scattered across the region. Even if I'm talking about the Solomon Islands, it's really hard to prioritize which provinces require, what kind of development because there's nine provinces. And within those nine provinces, there's different tribes and communities, but also there's different islands as well. And so, I think when you have a decentralized government system that allows assistance to filter through communities, I think that will really help in terms of developing the entire country. The other priority that I think is really, really useful in today's context, but also into the future, is the need to restore land, the need to restore land across the Pacific. And I think for me personally, it comes from a place where I'm a Pacific Islander, but I'm also part of a community that has been displaced. And so, I see land as a crucial part of Pacific islands resilience and sustainability into the future. A lot of the lands are their people own land customarily, or as a clan and tribe. But a lot of these lands have been degraded due to development activities. So, you have mining, you have logging, you have building up infrastructures that have caused a lot of damage to the land. And when I say restoring land, I'm saying it in a more holistic manner, where when you restore land, ecosystems are being restored as well, at the same time. Then you have resources, resources that a lot of the communities and people are dependent on for their subsistence, but as well for other uses, such as, you know, income generating alternatives. And so, for the Pacific Islands, I think, restoration, which I kind of like frame, as a separate sort of perspective, compared to adaptation is really crucial, because it engages the entire community, and we are seeing it more holistically than just addressing one aspect within the community that's being affected either by climate change or other related impacts.

Dr John Campbell  

Well, I agree with Tammy, of course, but I think an important thing is to change the narrative that Pacific Island people are vulnerable. Traditionally, they were anything but vulnerable, incredibly resilient, living in, in some cases, very narrow resource base situations, facing lots of environmental extremes. And they carved out sustainable societies. What's happening to Pacific Islands is not because of the vulnerability. They’re because they are exposed to changing environmental conditions and their doing everything I can to deal with it. And they should be applauded for doing that. But this idea that that somehow, they're vulnerable, and they can't, they're not capable suddenly of being resilient is just plain wrong. And I think that's something that needs to be challenged at the global level. The other thing I'd think about in terms of the future definitely has to be for the high greenhouse gas emitters to reduce their emissions. And that seems to be a very difficult thing to do. All you needed is a change of government and measures instilled by one government to reduce emissions suddenly get reversed in countries with high levels of industrialization and carbon use. But yeah, I think, looking forward, I agree with Tammy, that we have to ensure that Pacific islands continue to be great places to live, because they are trying to take a positive approach to those features. Not to just see them as somehow victims. But as places that have resilient people, many of whom want to continue to live on their lands. And you know, it's up to the rest of the world to make sure that that can happen. 

Dr Tammy Tabe  

When we look at climate change impacts in there in the region we often focus on, you know, the actual impacts of climate change policies and actions and I think one of the greatest impacts as well is the narrative about climate change in the Pacific Islands. Because it has such a generational impact not only on leaders but also on young people that even Pacific Islanders themselves and ourselves, because we're starting to think the way we've been perceived as well. And so, it really takes away that form of resilience that we had, you know, surviving in various conditions that we face as a generation of Pacific Islanders. And so, when you framed, coming back to the first question that you highlighted in terms of 'sinking islands', so you know, it seems like a future has already been framed for us, and we just have to sort of like, leave or comply to it. Rather than saying that, hey, we're not stinking islands, we need to get the narrative straight. It's actually the sea level is rising. And so, we're being affected. And so, having the narratives that actually reflect what's going on in the ground, but also the way we think as Pacific Islanders, especially when we're talking in the context of the Pacific currents is really crucial. And I think, when we say when we say that, Oh, we're vulnerable, just like John said, it really frames a different picture to development partners because they think that we do not have the capacity to adapt. Well, we've been living in this environment for generations. And so, it brings in different assistance and external interventions that may not be very conducive to our ways of resilience, or our ways of adapting. And so, I think for me, one of the critical things is the narrative needs to change and as academic as policymakers, we continue to challenge those narratives. But it's very difficult as well. And I think it comes back to the responsibilities of international corporations as well in terms of the way they frame the Pacific in relation to decisions that they make, but also the kinds of interventions that they provide for the region.

Maggie Perzyna  

Thanks to Tammy Tabby, and John Campbell for joining me today, and thank you for listening. This is a CERC Migration podcast produced in collaboration with Lead Podcasting. If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe to Borders & Belonging on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on climate change and the Pacific Islands, please visit the show notes. I'm Maggie Perzyna. Thanks for listening.