Season 2, Ep. 3: Why is xenophobia so entrenched in South Africa?

Below, you will find links to all of the research referenced by our guests, as well as other resources you may find useful.

Art & Documentary

(17 September 2023). Fear and Loathing in South Africa (external link)  - BBC Africa Eye documentary.

(27 September 2023). South Africa Xenophobia (external link) . BBC Africa Eye documentary.

Man on Ground (external link)  (2011). Directed by Akin Omotso.

Where do I Stand (external link)  (2008). Directed by Molly Blank.

Popular Media

Mabasa, N. (26 September 2023). South Africa’s Operation Dudula vigilantes usher in new wave of xenophobia (external link) . Al Jezeera.

Masiko-Mpaka, N. (28 September 2023). Xenophobia rears its ugly head in South Africa (external link) . Human Rights Watch.

Masuku (external link) , S. & Nkala, S. (23 August 2023). South Africa’s media often portrays foreigners in a bad light. This fuels xenophobia (external link) . The Conversation.

Sinwell, L., Maggott, T. & Ngwane, T. (17 February 2023).  How grassroots democracy has become a xenophobic weapon in South Africa (external link) . The Conversation.

Vearey, J., & Snyman, G. (2019, September 24). Stop spreading dangerous lies. Foreign migrants are not root cause of SA’s problems (external link) . City Press. 

Reports and Policy Papers

Landau, L., Ramjathan-Keogh, K., & Singh, G. (2005). Xenophobia in South Africa and problems related to it (external link) . Background Paper Prepared for:  Open Hearings on ‘Xenophobia and Problems Related to It” Hosted by the South African Human Rights Commission with the Portfolio Committee of the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Home Affairs). University of the Witwatersrand. 

Misago, J. P., Freemantle, I., & Landau, L. B. (2015). Protection from xenophobia (external link) . An evaluation of UNHCR’s regional office for Southern Africa’s xenophobia related programmes. UNHCR. 

Books

Hassim, S., Kupe, T., & Worby, E. (2008). Go Home or Die Here: Violence, Xenophobia and the Reinvention of Difference in South Africa (external link) . WITS University PRESS.

Ngwane, T., Sinwell, L., & Ness, I. (Eds.). (2017). Urban Revolt: State Power and the Rise of People’s Movements in the Global South (external link) . Haymarket Books.

Scholarly Articles

Alexander, P., Runciman, C., Ngwane, T., Moloto, B., Mokgele, K., & Van Staden, N. (2018). Frequency and turmoil: South Africa’s community protests 2005-2017 (external link) . South African Crime Quarterly, 63, 27–42. 

Amisi, B., Bond, P., Cele, N., & Ngwane, T. (2011). Xenophobia and civil society: Durban’s structured social divisions (external link) . Politikon, 38(1), 59–83. 

Brooks, H., Ngwane, T., & Runciman, C. (2020). Decolonising and re-theorising the meaning of democracy: A South African perspective (external link) . The Sociological Review, 68(1), 17–32. 

Landau, L. B. (2006). Transplants and transients: Idioms of belonging and dislocation in inner-city Johannesburg (external link) . African Studies Review, 49(2), 125–145. 

Landau, L. B. (2009). Living within and beyond Johannesburg: Exclusion, religion, and emerging forms of being (external link) . African Studies, 68(2), 197–214. 

Landau, L. B. (2010). Loving the alien? Citizenship, law, and the future in South Africa’s demonic society (external link) . African Affairs, 109(435), 213–230. 

Landau, L. B., & Freemantle, I. (2010). Tactical cosmopolitanism and idioms of belonging: Insertion and self-exclusion in Johannesburg. Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, 36(3), 

Landau, L. B., & Misago, J. P. (2009). Who to blame and what’s to gain? Reflections on space, state, and violence in Kenya and South Africa (external link) . Africa Spectrum, 44(1), 99–100. 

Maggott, T. (2021). Trevor Ngwane, Amakomiti: Grassroots democracy in South African shack settlements (external link) . Notebooks: The Journal for Studies on Power, 1(1), 209–211. 

Misago, J. P., & Landau, L. B. (2023). ‘Running them out of time:’ Xenophobia, violence, and co-authoring spatiotemporal exclusion in South Africa (external link) . Geopolitics, 28(4), 1611–1631. 

Ngwane, T. (2003). Sparks in the township. New Left Review, 22, 37–56.

Ngwane, T. (2019). ‘Insurgent democracy’: Post-apartheid South Africa’s freedom fighters (external link) . Journal of Southern African Studies, 45(1), 229–245. 

Ngwane, T., & Bond, P. (2020). South Africa’s shrinking sovereignty: Economic crises, ecological damage, sub-imperialism and social resistances (external link) . Vestnik RUDN. International Relations, 20(1), 67–83. 

Sempijja, N., & Mongale, C. O. (2022). Xenophobia in urban spaces: Analyzing the drivers and social justice goals from the Ugandan-Asian debacle of 1972 and xenophobic attacks in South Africa (2008-2019) (external link) . Frontiers in Sustainable Cities, 4, 934344. 

Sinwell, L., Ngwane, T., & Maggott, T. (2022). Electing to electrify: Unpacking the local crisis and state response in Sun Valley, Soweto (external link) . Politikon, 49(4), 337–349. 

Tella, O. (2016). Understanding xenophobia in South Africa: The individual, the state and the international system (external link) . Insight on Africa, 8(2), 142–158. 

Maggie Perzyna: Welcome to Borders & Belonging, a podcast that explores regional migration issues in a global context. This series is produced by CERC Migration in collaboration with Lead Podcasting. I'm Maggie Perzyna, a researcher with the Canada Excellence Research Chair in Migration and Integration program at Toronto Metropolitan University. 

Today, we're turning our attention to South Africa. In contrast to the late Desmond Tutu's hopeful aspirations for the "rainbow nation", championing human rights. Post-apartheid South Africa has been marked by xenophobic violence. A nation known for its rich cultural diversity and struggle for freedom, xenophobic sentiment is creating challenges for both its own citizens and foreign nationals who call it home. But what fuels this prejudice? How do historical, socio-economic, and political factors contribute to the tensions experienced within its borders? In this episode, we ask why xenophobia has become so entrenched across the political spectrum, connecting the dots between apartheid, economic development and scapegoating the failures of the state. 

But first, we'll hear from someone on the ground who's actively working to document and disrupt xenophobic violence across the country.

Fikile Mbalula: Illegal Immigrants put a heavy strain on the fiscals with adverse effects on service delivery, the overstretched health sector, high unemployment, and poverty. 

Maggie Perzyna: The voice you're hearing is that a Fikile Mbalula. He's the Secretary General of South Africa's ruling political party, the ANC.

Fikile Mbalula: Illegal immigrants have been a ticking time bomb for the country, which has been an albatross of the ANC led government.

Maggie Perzyna: Here, Mbalula is addressing the media following riots occurring in the township of Diepsloot in Johannesburg. For months now, the community has been protesting high crime rates and unemployment in the area. They've also been violently attacking immigrants, who many accused of being the culprits of their hardships. And according to Silindile Mlilo, statements like Mbalula's appear regularly across media outlets.

Silindile Mlilo: So, we've seen a lot of these statements in the media, where political leaders make reckless statements about migrants, and also these fuel sort of like, the misguided sentiments of people on the ground. Obviously, this is scapegoating of politicians who don't want to take responsibility for the role they have played in not delivering to the people as promised.

Maggie Perzyna: Silindile Mlilo has seen her share of this kind of political rhetoric over the past several years. In addition to being a PhD research fellow, she is also the project manager for Xenowatch out of the African Center for Migration and Society at the University of Witwatersrand. It's an open source system that collects information on xenophobic discrimination incidents in South Africa. 

Silindile Mlilo: There are different ways in which we monitor xenophobic violence. People can send us reports via our WhatsApp line, they can call us as well. They can also report on our email.

Maggie Perzyna: Xenowatch also works closely with partner organizations across the country who report violence from their respective locations. Using this information Silindile and her colleagues verify, analyze and map the incidents. These can vary from extortion to robbery, and even murder. Then there are the more insidious types of violence.

Silindile Mlilo: Recently we have Operation Dudula that has been going to different health care facilities, local clinics, in housing specifically, and preventing undocumented migrants from accessing healthcare services.

Maggie Perzyna: Regardless of the incident, Silindile and her colleagues strive to create early warning systems and conflict resolution interventions whenever they can.

Silindile Mlilo: So each incident that we receive, we try and verify it, and if that person is in need of help, we share that information with relevant authorities. But if it's an incident that has passed, then we just record it on our platform, and in cases where if a person reports and they're traumatized, or they're retraumatized through sharing the experience, we also try and link them with counselors that can offer them the relevant services that they will need.

Maggie Perzyna: Silindile recalls one incident where Xenowatch was indeed successful in preventing a violent attack. In 2019 Silindile and her colleagues received an alert from a partner organization in Cape Town. They heard that community members were planning on attacking foreign-owned spaza shops, which are kinda like corner stores.

Silindile Mlilo: And so, when  we heard of this, we then alerted relevant authorities. And the good thing was that the police in that area were very alert, and they knew the culprits. So, they were able to speak to them to say, if anything happens, you will be held liable. So, you know, that was a great, you know, it was a it was a great achievement, for lack of a better word, because most of the time when you report these incidents, our challenges is that there is lack of intervention by law enforcement. But, you know, this is something that stands out for us because it was proof to show that, you know, when different organizations come together and when law enforcement actually does this job and takes the report seriously, violence can be prevented before it happens.

Maggie Perzyna: Many thanks to Silindile Mlilo, for sharing her experiences working with Xenowatch. 

Xenophobia in South Africa is part of a complex web of socio-economic challenges, historical factors and political ideologies. Joining me today to explore this issue are Dr. Trevor Ngwane and Professor Loren Landau. Trevor is the director of the Center for Sociological Research and Practice at the University of Johannesburg. Lauren is a professor of migration and development at the University of Oxford, and at the University of Witwatersrand African Center for Migration and society.  Welcome to you both. So, let's dive in. 

After the fall of apartheid, there was great optimism in South Africa becoming the "rainbow nation", embracing its diversity. So, when did xenophobia first become an issue? And how has it evolved? Trevor, let's start with you.

Trevor Mgwane: Thank you Maggie, hi, Loren. Yeah, so I think the first worrying moment was in 2008, when there was sudden flare up of violence, leaving 62 people dead. So, this started in Johannesburg's, in a township called Alexandria, and then spread throughout the major metropolitan areas in South Africa. But, you know, afterwards research has generally noted that there was something brewing already, you know. By the year 2000, for example, there was talk, there was a government policy, which encouraged the use of local labor. There was also some competition around access to housing, free state houses. But that did not really take xenophobic lines. It was competition between different groups, those who are coming into the city later than others, or this area against that area. So, the turning point was indeed 2008, with that violent flare up.

Loren Landau: Yeah, I bet I agree. 2008 was really when it hit the limelight, as it were with that kind of nationwide flare up that began in Johannesburg. But as Trevor was saying, it goes back into the early 90s. It goes back to some of the political speeches that were made early after the end of apartheid. But I think you can even look further back to think about how the apartheid government used international migrants, organized labor to try to undermine the power of South African Black labor, particularly. So, there's always been this sense that immigrants, at least among some people, that immigrants or their immigrants are being used by, particularly by white, big business, to try to undermine South Africans economic power. And, you know, as things have gone on from apartheid, as some of that hope of a rapid transition, of an economic recovery of greater equality have faded, I think immigrants have become more and more a group that people blame for those failures.

Trevor Mgwane: Just following up on what Loren was saying. I think we can even go much further back in history. So, to answer the question of who is being targeted. Because remember, when gold and diamonds were discovered here in South Africa, New Johannesburg, also in Kimberley, in the Northern Cape. There was a shortage of labor. So, for example, the Zulus in the Zulu Kingdom, did not want to leave their Kingdom, they still had the access to their lands, even if they had lost a lot of it. They even brought people from China, even for agricultural purposes, they brought in people from Asia, who have settled here. But with the mines, they started sourcing labor from Mozambique primarily. And then also Malawi, and other areas north of South Africa. So for more than a century, people who come from Malawi, Zimbabwe, Namibia, you know, have been part of the scenario of the furniture. But apartheid was also very controlling. So we had something called influx control. The white government did not want Black people to move freely between their homes, their rural areas, where they call their reserves, and the city. So there's a lot of restriction, although people still went to the cities found a way to survive. But then with the new government, all those racist social control measures were more or less relaxed, even removed. And indeed, Nelson Mandela, at one point, was clearly affirming and welcoming our brothers and sisters who are not born in South Africa. Affirming their residents in South Africa, and also indicating, to welcome those who want to come over. People come from all over the world, even from Pakistan, China, but the xenophobia, that's why some people have called it Afro-phobia. It tends to target people born outside the borders of South Africa, in Africa, Mozambique, Malawi, Zimbabwe, Namibia, Ethiopia, Somalia, etc, etc. And they come for various reasons.

Maggie Perzyna: Can you help us understand who is migrating to South Africa? Where are they from? And what is the scale?

Loren Landau: Yeah, I think the migration to South Africa, as Trevor has been talking about is nothing new. The country, the reason it looks the way it is, the reason it's rainbow nation, if you if you buy that, to begin with is of course, because of migration. Some of that's been voluntary. Some of that's been through indentured labor, some of that's been displacement, either within the country or from neighboring countries. As it now stands, South Africa is the country that receives the highest number of African immigrants of any country in the world. Almost all of the immigrants coming to South Africa, now, numerically, are from the African continent, although of course, there are those from Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, and Europe, the United States, etc. But it's primarily people from neighboring countries about 80% are from Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Lesotho, Eswatini, what used to be Swaziland, with smaller numbers coming from countries further afield. Altogether, about 3% of South Africa is foreign-born three to 4%. So it's not a huge number. But what you see is that a lot of these people will concentrate in certain neighborhoods, in the big cities in some of the agricultural areas. And in in some of the informal settlements, where a lot of poor South Africans also live. Where a lot of poor South Africans are also first coming into the cities to try to look for work or to build lives. And in those areas, the percentages can be much higher. And those are the areas that people talk about. Those are the areas that are highly visible. And that's often where the violence takes place.

Maggie Perzyna: Trevor, you touched on this already, but how does historical factors like apartheid, influence attitudes towards foreigners in South Africa?

Trevor Mgwane: Yeah, so that's an important question and aspect because the apartheid regime, it had a problem. You know, it was a white racist regime in Africa, in Black Africa. So, it was always trying to divide the Black people or the Africans from Africans north of the Limpopo. So, Limpopo is the river which divides South Africa with Zimbabwe. So, there was this talk that you know - you Black South Africans, you are really having a good time. The rest of Africa, it's barbaric. There is poverty. So already there was that attempt to elevate the locals above the migrants. Even though the migrants were much needed to know for labor purposes. And also, apartheid had a problem of trying to undermine any form of resistance, rebellion, and primarily solidarity. So, for example, the earliest gold mines, diamond mines, they had compounds. Because they had single-sex hostels accommodation. They didn't allow you women or to bring your family. And then they would segregate people according to what was called 'Tribes'. So, for example, I am Zulu-speaking, so there would be a section for Zulus. Mandela was Khosa-speaking, a section for Khosas. Our president Ramaphosa is Venda-speaking, a section for Venda. They even did that when they built townships like Soweto, where I live. So, you had a Zulu section. So, this attempt just to divide people as much as possible. Even among the whites, there was a strong thing between Afrikaaners and English. So, they'd unite as the white but among themselves they'd discriminate.

Maggie Perzyna: Loren, you've written that even though apartheid, disadvantaged millions across the southern African continent, non-citizens are historically and geographically excluded from these claims. Can you tell me more?

Loren Landau: Yeah, I think it's an interesting thing, when South Africa thinks about itself and it thinks about addressing some of those really horrible legacies of racism, of apartheid, of segregation, of violence. It doesn't think about the violence that happened across the region. There are hints about solidarity, with Tanzania with Mozambique, with Zimbabwe. But really, when we think about who was disadvantaged by apartheid, and who now should be advantaged or should gain the benefits of post-apartheid dispensation, the region is sort of written out of that. And I think that's been a problem of thinking about, how do we think about historical redress? Of course, South Africa, invaded and bombed, most of the countries in the region trying to attack its opponents, and much of the region came together to help bring about the liberation of South Africa. So, there's a historical erasure there that I think also leads to a discussion where many people feel that the foreigners from Zim from Mozambique from these other countries, do not deserve to be in South Africa. That any wealth that is in South Africa, even if that wealth was built, as Trevor has been saying, with migrant labor in the past, that they don't have a right to claim anything. And I think that's been part of the discussion that's been absent, is to actually understand that entangled history, and really, also that South Africa, any prosperity in the region is going to come from a future of a more prosperous region, not just South Africa alone.

Maggie Perzyna: How do socio-economic factors such as poverty, unemployment, and inequality, contribute to xenophobic attitudes? Loren?

Loren Landau: That's a great question. And I think if the country were prosperous, if people felt like they had a bright future, we wouldn't be seeing the same kind of problems that we do. Right? And South Africa is more unequal, ironically, than it was during apartheid. Among many parts of the population, unemployment is higher. So we, you know, we're looking at quite economic desperate times to say nothing about the electricity and water situation that's, that's going on. But that is something that is spread across much of the country. And I think, you know, it's important, both what our research has really demonstrated that it's the local politics, and it's another legacy of apartheid, the way townships and communities are governed. And that's often through a mix of kind of gangsterism or patronage networks, and it's where those certain types of governing structures are in place, that we see the violence. So yes, socio-economic variables, absolutely central to this, but what triggers the violence and where it happens, is often linked to politics.

Maggie Perzyna: Trevor, you've written a lot about grassroots democracy and how it can be a tool to liberate but also how it can be weaponized against the vulnerable. What do you mean by that?

Trevor Mgwane: Well, one of the oppressed people's, let's say, weapon, you know of resistance was local organizing. So, at the height of the struggle against apartheid, you had workers organizing in the workplace, forming trade unions against the wishes of the apartheid monster. You had working class people in the Black townships like Soweto, Lamontville, etc, forming what was called 'Street Committees Civics', so they could organize themselves to help each other. But also these structures became a tool, a defense against apartheid. So that's what happened. But then, of course, the apartheid regime had to fight back to crush the resistance. And already during the height of the struggle against apartheid in the 80s - 1984, 85, 86 - which was the height of local community organizing and trade unionism, the apartheid state was able to actually control and support and sponsor local organizations, which were fomenting violence against other township residents. So, for example, in KwaZulu-Natal, you had the notorious, very tragic political violence where pro-national liberation forces were fighting each other. So, there has always been a strategy over who controls, and what politics controls local organization. But certainly, there is a tradition of meeting with your neighbors, forming organizations, doing things together, both at work and in people's residences. But it's a contestation over which politics, is it for unity, or is it for dividing?

Maggie Perzyna: Who's being targeted? And does it change from region to region?

Loren Landau: Yeah, I think as Trevor said, before, much of the violence is targeted at other Africans. But we also see violence against Pakistani shopkeepers, against Chinese shopkeepers, Bangladeshi shopkeepers. We don't see it against very many white people or wealthy people. And some of that has to do with who people are, and who's seen as a threat. But a lot of it also has to do with where the violence takes place. It's taking place in sometimes where you have business associations attacking foreign shopkeepers to try to eliminate competition. And those shopkeepers are often Pakistani, Somali. Ethiopians, right? We sometimes see these kinds of conflicts emerge around labor disputes, and there, we're often seeing that the laborers are Zimbabwean or Mozambican. So they're the ones are being targeted. Right? So, it changes not so much because of who someone is, but often because of where they sit in the economy, who perceives them as an economic threat, a political threat. But you know, often what we have seen is very few attacks, for example, on people from Eswatini, from Swaziland, or from Lesotho, who often blend in almost seamlessly with the South African population.

Trevor Mgwane: Yeah, well, that last point, that's an important point. Because, you know, people from Eswatini they speak Swazi. So, you have people who are Swazi-speaking who are born in South Africa. There are many people who speak Sotho, so if you come from Lesotho, as Loren says, you blend in. Also, people from Botswana, they speak Setswana and there's a large group of Setswana-speaking people here. So you know, they blend in easily. But of course, in theory, people from Mozambique should be able to blend in easily because they speak Shangaan and then there's a lot of Shangaan-speaking people here. But sometimes, the prejudice actually starts to find ways of identifying those who are non-South African, to an extent that it becomes purely racist. So, people, if you are very dark, they think you're a foreigner. And then they have this test where the xenophobes, where they ask you in the African language like Zulu, "What is the elbow in isiZulu"? So, in ???, so if you speak Shangaan, you know, you're going to pronounce it slightly differently. Yeah, so we have a regime here of what's called critical skills. So, if you're a medical doctor or an engineer, you are welcome in South Africa. But if you don't have any skills, in a way, it's a strategy among the poorest of the poor, among working class people. Indeed, some of the right-wing groups here, they say openly. We just want to be the waiters, waitrons, you know, we want to sweep the streets? Why should you get a Zimbabwean to sweep the street. So, there is a strong class dimension to it.

Maggie Perzyna: There has been a rise in populism and far right ideologies across the globe. Are these political narratives influencing xenophobic sentiments in South Africa?

Loren Landau: It's a great question. And South Africa is its own thing and has its own politics and has, well has been innovating, I guess, in the area of xenophobia for many years now. But that said, there is a strong resonance, I think, between what is happening in South Africa, what's happening in the United States, what's happening in Europe. We saw many people celebrating Donald Trump's anti-immigration stance, or Boris Johnson's anti-immigration stance, notwithstanding the kind of racist undertones that those politicians brought to the table. I do think that there is a sense among South Africans that they look at Europe, they look at the United States, they look at Australia, and they say, look, those wealthy countries can't have immigrants. They can't, they feel threatened by immigrants, especially people coming from other parts of Africa. So, who are we to accept these people? How can we possibly absorb them? And I think what we've also seen is a resonance among the kind of political movements. So, there are a growing number of movements and parties in South Africa, who have looked at the success that a Boris Johnson, a Donald Trump, the leaders in Italy, the leaders in Greece have had with an anti-immigrant platform. And they've adopted that. They don't have plans for reforming the economy. They don't have plans for creating jobs or getting the lights back on. So instead, they're using this rhetoric that they borrowed from the international community. And surprise, surprise, that it's violent. It's exclusive, but it's also effective.

Maggie Perzyna: What role can community leaders, civil society organizations, and even individuals play in addressing xenophobia at the grassroots level?

Trevor Mgwane: Yeah, so that's a fantastic question because, you know, Loren talked about how often poor working class migrants, immigrants, because of the lack of housing, they'll end up in informal settlements. In shack settlements, shanty towns, and then that's where you get the violence. But there is one shack settlement here in Johannesburg called [?Tembelise] where when the xenophobia erupted in 2008, there was another big flare up in 2015. The local communities there organized against xenophobia. For example, some people opportunistically were taking the refrigerators, machines, goods, from the local shops of Somali speaking people from Somali. So, this organization called the ???? Committee, which was formed, you know, to defend against forced relocation, went around collecting these goods and restoring them back to their owners. To the extent that this organization in the community such won a prize was awarded by the government for its championship of social cohesion. So, it's most important to understand that it depends on the local leadership, on the politics they espouse. Of course, it's not something they just think in their heads. But certainly, they do make certain political choices. They do follow certain ideas. And we always hope that those leaders will be more pro-solidarity, rather than, you know, pro-xenophobia.

Loren Landau: Yeah, I would just say that I think it's really important as much as South Africa has gained a reputation globally for the xenophobic violence and for xenophobia. And the public opinion polls show that most South Africans are actually quite uncomfortable with immigration, that the violence that takes place is actually the exception, not the norm. And that in many places, local communities have, as Trevor says, have either stood up to violence, some of that even in Alexs (Alexandra township), when that violence started in 2008. There'd be violence on one side of the street and the other side of the street, stopping people from coming in. But most parts of South Africa, people just live side by side. Living with difference is a completely normal thing in a country as diverse as South Africa. And I think most people are not that bothered by the fact that their neighbor might be Zimbabwean or Mozambican or whatever and see that as normal. It's not something that you would stand up and get angered about. And I think we do need to keep in mind that most communities, in fact, are like that. People are more interested in just getting on with their lives and trying to fight each other.

Maggie Perzyna: How can South Africa strike a balance between protecting the rights and interests of its citizens, but also fostering a welcoming and inclusive environment for foreign nationals? What policies or initiatives could help in combating xenophobia?

Trevor Mgwane: Well, the truth is the South African government, it's a government of national liberation. The first president was Nelson Mandela, straight from jail. And he took office as the president, many of the leaders, you know, ministers, local councilors, mayors, they were in exile, some of them were guerrillas. So what has happened, basically, is that that national liberation movement has failed to fulfill the promise of national liberation, which is, as Mandela said, jobs for all, houses for all, water for all, education for all. So, a major reform in South Africa, which is needed against xenophobia is to actually meet the needs of the people and actually fulfill the promises of national liberation, for which many people sacrificed, including going to jail and dying. So, I think this is a major, major, major challenge, which we face.

Loren Landau: Well, I think we can start by reframing the discussion that that bringing immigrants into the country is somehow working against South African interest. For sure the restaurants or farms that hire people below the cost of minimum wage, this kind of job replacement is there. But immigrants also are bringing trade, they're bringing investment, they buy a lot, they pay a lot of tax. And as Trevor mentioned before, they provide skills, not just engineers, not just doctors, which are definitely needed. But you know, teachers, electricians, etc. And they're willing to often go into places where skilled South Africans are less likely to want to work. There's a possibility of South Africa growing with immigrants. And I think that's where the discussion needs to happen. We need to shift the discussion about immigration as this threat to South Africa's transformation. And all those things are very real, all those challenges that Trevor has outlined, but to say, actually, let's think about how immigration can help the region grow, can expand South African markets, can expand South African employment skills, etc. And I think policies that reframe the discussion like that could work. But also, the jobs have to be there. They have to be reformed to local government, so that they're not run by gangsters or by organization, rogue organizations, and people have to be held accountable. So right now, crime pays, violence pays, xenophobia pays, as long as that continues, people are going to use that as a strategy.

Maggie Perzyna: Looking to the future, are there any glimmers of hope that xenophobia can be reduced?

Trevor Mgwane: Yeah. So, each time there is a flare up of violence, we do find civil society groups, movements, rallying. In 2008, they had one big march in Johannesburg, in the city centre against xenophobia. Again in 2015, in various parts of the country, people will come out and demonstrate against xenophobia. Recently, in Johannesburg, was formed a new organization called Kopanang Africa Against Xenophobia (KAAX). Kopanang means unite in Sotho. The distinction of this organization is that the people said, the activists said we don't want to form these organizations only when there is a violent xenophobic flare up. So, they committed themselves to keep Kopanang Africa against Xenophobia alive. So, it becomes part and parcel of everyday life in South Africa. Kind of contesting some of the issues which Loren is raising, for example, pointing out that immigrants contribute to South Africa. Immigrants you know, they also need support. Immigrants are human, you know, looking at so-called African values such as Ubuntu, you know, "I am because we are", to encourage locals to embrace immigrants.

Loren Landau: I mean, South Africa is in a very trying time at the moment. Economic realities, the breakdown of many of this sort of public service systems, the health system, electricity. So, things are going to be tough for all South Africans, and everyone else who's living in South Africa. And this raises the real possibility. And I think the likelihood that we'll see more xenophobic flare ups and attacks in the immediate future. However, I think there's also a growing awareness among South Africans, that these problems are not because of immigrants. That the real, the real problems are because of mismanagement of the economy, of local government, of policies that have brought advantage to the wealthy. And I think in time, that will shift the discourse. There are these organizations that Trevor's mentioning in the short term, and people are standing up and saying, look, don't make immigrants, the scapegoat, don't distract us from what really needs to happen, which is a much more fundamental change in the way the country is governed. And when I hear those voices, I do feel that there is there is a glimmer of hope. But I think we still have a rough time ahead.

Trevor Mgwane: Yeah, we've got a slogan, you know, 'no human is illegal'. We just feel that we should everywhere, recognize, respect, and affirm all human beings, irrespective of where they were born. So, this vision, this idea, you know, is most important in the struggle against xenophobia.

Loren Landau: Yeah, I couldn't have said it better.

Maggie Perzyna: That's a lovely sentiment, Trevor. Thank you, and a great place to finish. Thank you both so much! 

Trevor Mgwane: Thank you, Maggie. 

Loren Landau: Thank you.

Maggie Perzyna: Thank you to Trevor Ngwane and Loren Landau, for joining me today. And thank you for listening. This is a Cirque migration podcast produced in collaboration with Lead Podcasting. If you enjoyed the episode, subscribe to Borders & Belonging on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more information on xenophobia in South Africa, please visit the show notes. I'm Maggie Perzyna. Thanks for listening.